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matthew
02-02--2006, 07:53 PM
Will we get into trouble and have to break off relations with the islamic world.. if i start talking about 'those cartoons' ?... I don't know even if it is wise to link to a site that has them... oh dear i am so worried about upsetting someone ???

any thoughts ???

Exedous
02-02--2006, 08:06 PM
:music: "when the system starts to crack, we'll have to get ready to give it all back":music:

Ah go on, live dangerously....:harhar:


Ghost:patch:

Atomik
02-02--2006, 08:14 PM
Most of 'em were crap anyway.

matthew
02-02--2006, 09:51 PM
Ah go on, live dangerously....:harhar:

I was basicaly testing the water.. i could have just asked permision from the moderators i guess.. but i thought i would be a little sarcastic instead.. Saying that i did not want any trouble for the site itself [nice that way i am] .


Most of 'em were crap anyway.

I know.. not really the point though i suppose.

''Don't worry mate they where crap'' probably would not settle this tense situation..

Personally i would use that logic.. keep it simple :wiggle: i obviously don't value my life that much

and tell those upset to join a forum.. and talk about the issues.. rather than boycoting stuff and saying stuff like some palestinians did.

I guess the original reasons the cartoons where printed has been proven ten fold ..

Anusha
02-02--2006, 10:21 PM
personaly i'm into freedom of speech and think that as these cartoons exsist anyone should be free to discuss them..and to do that you need to make people aware of them....

but..i see that they are offensive to muslims as they forbid the human representation of the prophet Mohammed..and i suppose that just as we are regulated by Admin on this site..and material they deem offensive is removed... so perhaps should the media moderate itself and not show images that offend the religious beliefs of others...

Dapablo
02-02--2006, 11:50 PM
God is dead, wake up and smell the coffee.

Its about time someone stood up and said it really, all this rubbish is starting to get really tedious. Until the western governments drop their pretence of christianity the east is continually gonna get pissed off about the west disrespecting their god.

Paul
03-02--2006, 12:27 AM
It's the hypocrisy that I don't get ... for years and years the middle eastern press haves been pumping out all sorts of anti-semitic cartoons.

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

Anusha
03-02--2006, 01:25 AM
It's the hypocrisy that I don't get ... for years and years the middle eastern press haves been pumping out all sorts of anti-semitic cartoons.

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

ooh.. powerful cartoons... but as wrong as it is...two wrongs etc etc......

now for obvious reasons i find anti-semetism disturbing... but that doesnt make these anti-islamic cartoons acceptable.... that said...i'm not against papers printing them for discussion...

Paul
03-02--2006, 01:32 AM
I agree that 2 wrongs don't make a right, but if you dish out what you consider 'humour' then you technically have no real comeback when you receive it.

(Notice I put the word humour in quotes)

I don't think any form of religious conflict makes sense, in my opinion it's just plain daft and both sets of pictures can be offensive to the wrong people ... but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere when it comes to deciding whose sensibilities we're allowed to offend and whose we have to step carefully around.

Threatening death and destruction over a few potentially insulting pictures is hardly a justifiable reaction.

Anusha
03-02--2006, 01:44 AM
agreed...but these cartoons are designed for maximum offence..after all a picture can speak louder... and the most fanatical will always react predictably...

I'm never convinced that religion is the real reason behind conflict..although many wars have been started in its name... humans are inherantly barbaric... wether from the east or west or whatever religious divide... i'm not sure how any line can be drawn here...they fuel the fire..and some people will always have a great interest in making sure it continues...

Aunty Al
03-02--2006, 10:56 AM
It seems to me that the anti-semitic cartoons differ in a very fundamental aspect in that they do not try to portray that which is holy to the Jews but simply parodies the Jewish political system.

Atomik
03-02--2006, 11:00 AM
What is 'holy'? What's holy to you might not be what's holy to me. Does defining something as holy therefore protect it from parody? How many people have to consider a thing holy before it receives this protection? If I define vegetarianism as holy, can I be assured that nobody will be allowed to lampoon it? How many vegetarians do I need to rally to my cause before it can be accorded sucha right?

Muslims are free to determine what they believe is holy. Everyone else if free to mock them for it. The only line I'd draw is when mockery becomes incitement to hatred. Interestignly, anti-semitic cartoons are generally designed to incite racial hatred....

Boy Anachronism
03-02--2006, 05:50 PM
This is such a load of rubbish. Did anyone see the interview on ITN at lunchtime? I'm sorry, but, the fanatics who kick up a fuss about a cartoon are the ones that need to be charged with inciting religious hatred. After watching them storm the danish embassy in Indonesia I...gah. Sorry, I'm feeling really angry about this. The woman interviewing the muslim guy on the news was trying to make the point that celebrating the Sept 11 attacks was offensive to westeners, but the bloody muslim wasn't listening at all.
There's something funny going on. Either the media is being very selective with how they portray muslims, or Islam actually is an evil religion. This guy in the news room was actually trying to justify murdering anyone who draws a picture of Mohammed. Even trying to say that muslims have a right to do it in this country as part of their religious freedom.
Seriously. I can see the far right rubbing their hands with glee.

Atomik
03-02--2006, 05:58 PM
There's something funny going on. Either the media is being very selective with how they portray muslims, or Islam actually is an evil religion.Three guesses which. Islam's no more or less inherently evil than Christianity. I could find you plenty of Christians with equally barbaric views. It's not religion that's corrupt - it's human nature.

Paul
03-02--2006, 06:01 PM
There's something funny going on. Either the media is being very selective with how they portray muslims, or Islam actually is an evil religion.I think that the media is really showing the bad side of Islam. Good stuff just doesn't sell papers.

However, I don't think think Islam is a good way to live. Personally I consider it oppressive and unhealthy ... but I also consider catholicism, fundamentalist christianity and many other faiths to be oppressive and unhealthy.

We have to remember that not all people born into Islam are actually that religious, and even less are extreme .. What is worrying is the way many people are being manipulated into thinking they are.

Boy Anachronism
03-02--2006, 06:13 PM
I'm not gonna say anymore in case I come across as racist, which I'm not. But freedom of speech is very important to me, and I am very grateful to live in a country where I can say "Jesus titty-fucking Christ" without fear of a stoning (the bad type!).

Paul
03-02--2006, 06:22 PM
I'm not gonna say anymore in case I come across as racist, which I'm not.
There is a difference between disliking a religion and singling out (and stereotyping) the followers of that religion.

matthew
03-02--2006, 06:52 PM
We talk of the cartoons..but not about the article that accompanied it.. I think the whole point was to challenge stereotypes and actually do the Islamic faith and it's followers a favour.. By making us confront what we may think of Islam and it's followers.

I think British newspapers will print them next week.. but not the article itself. What a waste of time .

I think the media have perpetuated a myth or maybe even a reality even further with it's coverage this week.. rampaging muslims all over the place.. Moving the whole debate on about a mm.

phil
06-02--2006, 12:43 PM
Threatining beheading, death, bombing etc etc because of some drawings! pulease. I havent seen em and couldnt give a shit. talk about extreme. I can except people livin in the east hating the west. But choosing to live in the west and hating it. Its like picking the most uncomfortable bed you can find, then spending your life complaining about it. Smile more for fucks sake! :D

matthew
06-02--2006, 03:28 PM
Threatining beheading, death, bombing etc etc because of some drawings! pulease. I havent seen em and couldnt give a shit. talk about extreme. I can except people livin in the east hating the west. But choosing to live in the west and hating it. Its like picking the most uncomfortable bed you can find, then spending your life complaining about it. Smile more for fucks sake! :D

Smile more is a good idea..but i think its a bit deeper than that to be fair... :whistle:

If you ever 'give a shit' :whistle:

Judging by this [below] some newspapers not only re-printed but expanded upon.. i think diluting the main point of the original cartoons/article.. Taken out of context.. sure it would seem the newspaper was taking the piss..

The entire controversy started when Danish author Kåre Bluitgen complained that he could not find an artist brave enought to illustrate his upcoming book about Mohammed. The newspaper Jyllands-Posten issued a call for submissions from any artists willing to take up the challenge. In the ensuing brouhaha, the original book was almost forgotten; it has now been released, and does feature page after page of Mohammed depictions. This site (http://www.exilen.org/debatt/read.php?f=17&i=195024&t=195024) features scans of several of the pages (hat tip: Rune, Kim and Mikkel.). This image above, taken from the book (titled Koranen og profeten Muhammeds liv, or The Koran and the life of the prophet Mohammed in English), apparently shows Mohammed with his child-bride Aisha. This Danish blog (http://www.newspaperindex.com/blog/2006/01/24/332/) also has some information about the release of the book.



Higher-resolution jpegs of each individual cartoon, along with a picture of the article on the original Jyllands-Posten page, can be found here (http://face-of-muhammed.blogspot.com/).

Furthermore, when a delegation of Danish imams went to the Middle East to discuss the issue of the cartoons with senior officials and prominent Islamic scholars (http://counterterror.typepad.com/the_counterterrorism_blog/2006/02/fabricated_cart.html), the imams openly distributed a booklet that showed not only the original 12 cartoons, but three fraudulent anti-Mohammed depictions that were much more offensive than the ones published in Denmark. It is now thought that these three bonus images are what ignited the outrage in the Muslim world (http://bibelen.blogspot.com/2006/01/imams-showed-pedophile-mohamed.html). The newspaper Ekstra Bladet obtained a copy of the booklet (http://www.ekstrabladet.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=329877) and presented the three offensive images on its Web site (though not in an easy-to-find place). All look like low-quality photocopies. Here they are:
(Hat tip: Gerry, Martin H., and rfs.)

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/ (http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/)

Not all muslims are 'exreme' i guess we have to remember...

phil
06-02--2006, 04:32 PM
Cheers dude. Well i've seen em now and still cant see what all the fuss is about. to start with their not that funny. Granted i'm not a muslim so perhaps dont get it but even so. I agree with the hypocrisy point. If some body has no respect for cristianity (which i think would be a must if you're a muslim wouldnt it??!) has no respect for and in fact despises western cultures and ideologies yet i have to respect their religeon and ideas. if it didnt cause so much death and distruction the irony would be really funny.

matthew
06-02--2006, 05:46 PM
Cheers dude. Well i've seen em now and still cant see what all the fuss is about. to start with their not that funny. Granted i'm not a muslim so perhaps dont get it but even so. I agree with the hypocrisy point. If some body has no respect for cristianity (which i think would be a must if you're a muslim wouldnt it??!) has no respect for and in fact despises western cultures and ideologies yet i have to respect their religeon and ideas. if it didnt cause so much death and distruction the irony would be really funny.

I smell 'jumping on bandwagons'... with the majority.. People with other agendas.. clerics in some of the countries demonstrating .. have a jihad agenda anyway.

5 people have died so far..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4684652.stm

and some one says sorry [fair play to him]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif I understand it was wrong, unjustified and insensitive of me to protest in this way http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Omar Khayam


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4686410.stm

I respect those that are offended with representing Mohammed in anyway.. any need to burn flags call for deaths etc etc .. no.. i agree with you.

Boy Anachronism
06-02--2006, 05:54 PM
If my only contact with the Islamic faith had been what's been in the media in the past few days, I would assume that the word "muslim" was synonymous with "Nazi". Looking at the pictures, reading the articles, I keep feeling that Islam is a horrible regime, not just a religion.

matthew
06-02--2006, 06:01 PM
If my only contact with the Islamic faith had been what's been in the media in the past few days, I would assume that the word "muslim" was synonymous with "Nazi". Looking at the pictures, reading the articles, I keep feeling that Islam is a horrible regime, not just a religion.

I agree...

It has been slightly one sided though..

Only small voices of disagreement of the actions of those who are rampaging..

Oracle
07-02--2006, 12:31 AM
IMO people should get over it, I know the pics are offensive and nobody likes them, but there's nothing wrong with printing them for awareness and to show people what's going on. Also why do people take it so seriously?

They're just a few pictures and they would ahve been forgotten about if the Islamic people hadn't made such a big deal about it. It wouldn't have even made it to the news, and now everybody knows about them.

It's blatant racism against the west (netherlands in particular, but not at all limited to that) and totally double standards.
Also, how can they be upset at the western media when teir own media has been doing stuff like this for such a long time and they all just ignore the propaganda over there: http://www.pmw.org.il/

It's pathetic and stupid, and petty!

They're openly saying they wanna kill westerners because of the pics and burning the embassies etc.

Well if everybody was like them (ie no logic) then we would have nuked all the Islamic states a loooooong time ago because of all the terrorism that's coming out of them. We could easily say "yeh they're all evil terrorists, let's nuke 'em" but we don't coz we actually think and use logic.

rachel
07-02--2006, 11:32 AM
I feel there is a fine middle path to be trodden here - between the right to free speech, which is kind of 'holy' to me and many other Westerners, and a compassionate respect for the beliefs of others. If Moslems find any depiction of Mohammed wrong, then we can surely still make fun of Islam's extremes without actually depicting Mohammed.

However, I'm afraid that there is something much more scary happening here - the rising sense of a war developing between Islam and the West. And, like it or not, we may find ourselves drawn into taking a side.

Some days all of the main news items are now about Islam versus America and Europe - Iran's nuclear plans (cheers Bush for saying you might invade Iran - no wonder they feel the need for a few bombs), the horrific and seemingly endless situation between Israel and the Palestinians (who don't even have a proper autonomous state), the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan...

It seems that we always need an enemy - from Nazis to Russians, and now its Islam. I don't think human nature is evil, just mammalian. There's still such strong urges towards protecting territory and tribalism (religion is always tribal). Until we evolve towards a more conscious state and choose to choose rather than being run by our animal instincts, the war will continue - everywhere.

The big problem now is that we have such a capacity for destruction, and the extremists of the tribe of Islam believe they will all go to paradise if they murder the infidel (that's me and you). So perhaps they can even get their heads round the destruction of the whole human race. After all, who cares about this life if there's a much sexier one waiting?

Sorry to sound so down, I'm not really. I love life and am a very joyful person. If I stand back into Big Self, then all this politicking doesn't even matter - we're just one tiny planet full of maniacs!!

Love to all - even Muslims!!
Rachel

Atomik
07-02--2006, 11:43 AM
I feel there is a fine middle path to be trodden here - between the right to free speech, which is kind of 'holy' to me and many other Westerners, and a compassionate respect for the beliefs of others. If Moslems find any depiction of Mohammed wrong, then we can surely still make fun of Islam's extremes without actually depicting Mohammed.Sympathetic as I am towards this point of view, I just can't agree. I don't think people should set out to portray Mohammed just for the sake of doing so, but neither do I think they should refrain from doing so out of fear of causing offence. I actually think that this situation represents a dangerous attack on the principles of free speech. If moslems don't want to portray Mohammed, then they're welcome not to do so. I'm not a moslem, so I'll do as I wish. I refuse to be bound by the principles of someone else's faith.

Dapablo
07-02--2006, 11:50 AM
The biggest surprise to me so far is the british press keeping out of the furorer, where are the pictures in the Sun or NOTW ?

Government control or self cencorship by the owners ?

Atomik
07-02--2006, 11:53 AM
The biggest surprise to me so far is the british press keeping out of the furorer, where are the pictures in the Sun or NOTW ?

Government control or self cencorship by the owners ?Undoubtedly self-censorship. You can read this in two ways - either the gutter press are for once practicing admirable self-restraint, or they're displaying an alarming degree of fear. The former seems unlikely, which only leaves the latter. If a 'war' is indeed brewing between the West and Islam, I feel that both sides will have contributed to that situation.

Dapablo
07-02--2006, 12:05 PM
Undoubtedly self-censorship. You can read this in two ways - either the gutter press are for once practicing admirable self-restraint, or they're displaying an alarming degree of fear. The former seems unlikely, which only leaves the latter. If a 'war' is indeed brewing between the West and Islam, I feel that both sides will have contributed to that situation.

Time to start stocking up with supplies, and get that vegetable patch going. :)

scarlett
07-02--2006, 12:32 PM
sometimes i think marx was right !

i have no time for patriachal religions pushing their morals upon me. Religion like sexuality is a matter of personal choice.
The cartoons in question, in my opinion, weren’t satirical,they were just badly drawn cartoons.Satire mocks and gives us a chance to laugh at or discuss a subject.
Should they have been published ?...YES ! is Islam so weak it cannot ignore the scribblings of a right wing newspaper? Will it fall and crumble because of this ?:rolleyes:

I find the behaviour and the reaction of the fascist Muslim minority abhorrent. Just like I find the hysteria caused by the vocal fascist Christian minority over Jerry Springer the opera disgusting, and the atrocities carried out in the name of Judaism against the palestinians abhorrant.
But what still really stuns me is the number of Women who so fanatically adhere to these religions. All of the mainstream religions state in their texts that women are second class beings in the eyes of ‘’GOD’’ and these religions through the centuries have gone out of their way to persecute any woman who dares question the male authority.
Imagine the furore, if all women stood up and said “we’ve had enough of living by the unnatural moral code you’ve imposed upon us,telling us how we should love, how we should give birth, sending our sons to die in your religious wars and then having to pick up the pieces every time you f**k up. AND still you tell us we are not holy enough to be priests, imams, rabbis or have a direct link with god ’’

RANT OVER:mad:

Atomik
07-02--2006, 12:34 PM
:clap:

Dapablo
07-02--2006, 12:54 PM
But what still really stuns me is the number of Women who so fanatically adhere to these religions. All of the mainstream religions state in their texts that women are second class beings in the eyes of ‘’GOD’’ and these religions through the centuries have gone out of their way to persecute any woman who dares question the male authority.
Imagine the furore, if all women stood up and said “we’ve had enough of living by the unnatural moral code you’ve imposed upon us,telling us how we should love, how we should give birth,


I actually believe this is the real problem Islam has with the west.

Boy Anachronism
07-02--2006, 12:54 PM
All this trouble because someone printed a picture of Mohammeds mug...

http://www.ukhippy.com/gallery/files/2/3/MohammedsMug.bmp

rachel
07-02--2006, 02:29 PM
I totally agree with Scarlettdee (i just haven't got the hang of the 'quote' thing yet). All religion, sexuality, drug consumption etc. should be a private matter that you engage in with whichever consenting adults you like.

A few years ago it looked like religious influence was waning, leaving us free to follow any, or no, path. But now this fudamentalist shit is everywhere. Is it fear that drives people into such dogmatic attitudes?

As for patriarchy. Ho hum. When I became a witch I thought I could just talk about that stuff now. WRONG. Many people are still full of crap about pagan choices, in spite of the fact that all the patriarchal religions are the murdurous ones. Yet still we're considered to be child molesters. Do me a favour.

I suppose my biggest question is: what kind of God is it that people are worshipping? Who made the world but wants most of us to suffer and die at the hands of others?

Love Rachel

Starke Ravinmad
07-02--2006, 05:08 PM
It's going to get worse. How do you stop it?

stardust
07-02--2006, 08:11 PM
It's going to get worse. How do you stop it?

just what i've been wandering so i started a new thread on it!