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Paul
25-02--2006, 06:58 PM
Earlier on my significant other sat in front of me eating a sausage sandwich ... I made some throwaway comment about how that sausage was once a real life animal before having it's throat cut and dying a horrible death.

They responded that it was probably electrocuted, so I replied that, because it was bought from a halal cafe it was probably drained of it's blood first.

Few minutes later I was angrily reprimanded for preaching and that I had no right to push my opinions onto them as they were not going to feel guilty about eating meat no matter what I said and it was not my right to tell them how to live.

Do you think I might have hit a nerve? :D

Seriously though ... is it wrong to challenge the meat eating behaviour of others or should I just quietly let them get on with it?

Ms. Vee
25-02--2006, 07:15 PM
Continue to challenge us. I am a meat-eater trying to change her ways and go veggie, and everytime I hear a comment like this it moves me further and further away from meat. It's disheartening when I tell people that I'm kicking meat out of my diet, only to hear them reply with "it'll be too hard" or "you'll never do it". I need to believe I can do it and - as I don't really know any vegetarians - reading posts from you veggies on here is really encouraging me.

So - yes - keep on challening people! Because it does make the difference.

Atomik
25-02--2006, 07:22 PM
Pass. I'm on the fence. I can see both sides of the argument, and I think perhaps the answer to your question varies depending on the person and the situation.

stormypagan
25-02--2006, 07:34 PM
I used to be more of a vegan policeman in my youth and when I first became vegan, as is normal for most!! But now I believe in education not patronisation... meaning give folk the facts and hopefully they will make up their own mind about eating meat or not hopefully!! I have to say since I stopped preaching, and getting angry (though that is not unheard of) I have helped convert many a person vegan/veggie, from educating them, when they ask questions. Getting on your soap box scenario is less effective!!

Whirler
25-02--2006, 08:07 PM
I feel the same way as Dok and Stormy on this one.

I used to make comments like that and will still do if the other person has provoked me by saying something like 'mmmm juicy dead pig' or some other endearing statement.

You've got to be subtle with your education - people will willingly listen to someone talking to them but when they start shouting (metaphorically speaking) they'll stop listening and become defensive.

Lead by example - those that care will follow eventually. :)

Ms. Vee
25-02--2006, 08:14 PM
Yeah, forcing opinions on people never works really. I do think you should educate, but just not attack. If anything, that just pushes people further away.

Exedous
25-02--2006, 08:29 PM
They have to be warned...no seriously though...we live in a world where we are disafeccted and hidden from the horrors of the meat trade...i think if you are going to consume meat, at least look into its history....

Sorry if that sounds misplaced or harsh... Im not anti meat eating...each to thier own...im just posting my opinion.

:patch:

staralfur
25-02--2006, 09:05 PM
i don't think that sounds harsh at all.. people should look into it - i think most people don't because it's easier to eat meat when you just don't think about it- you forget that it was actually a living animal unless you are reminded, or you remind yourself..
however, if you make a point of learning about the way in which animals are treated it makes you think more when you are faced with meat
i suppose that many though are of the opinion, as with most issues, that ignorance is bliss (in fact people are probably ignorant of their own ignorance.. i know what i mean.. )
i'm so tired, i hope what i've written makes grammatical sense !

Joel
26-02--2006, 12:30 AM
to be honest, im a vegitarian, but preachy vegitarians really do get on my nerves, especially when its just random, and especially when its to do with the meat trade, as horrid as it is i wouldnt wanna be reminded when im eating something

Milo
26-02--2006, 01:09 AM
"What goes against the grain of conditioning is experienced as not credible, or as a hostile act." (John McMurtry, philosopher)



* Seriously though ... is it wrong to challenge the meat eating behaviour of others or should I just quietly let them get on with it?

Hell, no, but it has a lot to do with the how and when of it though. A lot of thoughtless thickos, once they know that you're veggie / vegan, will be inclined to take this piss and sometimes say the nastiest things, but you can keep some stats up your sleeve and quietly batter down any argument they might dredge up.

Often the cruelty angle doesn't work too well, because folks have immunised themselves against it, but perhaps help yourself to some stats from the tables at the top of this (http://www.10000things.org.uk/food.htm) page and if they feel that an animal's life is relatively unimportant, you can develop your quiet argument along the lines of whether or not they might feel that they have any more right to have enough food and water, (possessions, etc.), than any other person (in Tanzania, for example):

250206: The British High Commissioner to Tanzania, Dr Andrew Pocock, said.... ’We are aware that more than 3.7 million Tanzanians are affected by drought, out of which 564,723 can’t afford to buy the food that is being distributed by your government. They need support to sail through this period,’ he said.

Joel
26-02--2006, 01:13 AM
hmm i think its just a matter of timing, if you just see someone with a burger and go "thats a dead animal" than your likely to be considered a bit mean, im not being nasty like, but you can challenge peoples beliefs and have a sense of timing about it, otherwise people tend to get annoyed etc

Milo
26-02--2006, 01:32 AM
Wherabouts yng Nghymru, pleasant friend?

Starling
26-02--2006, 03:08 PM
It's a tough one. The more i think about it, the more i wonder why meat eaters can't hack it if we start saying things whilst they're eating meat. I mean, after all, they don't agree with us, right? So it shouldn't bother them. But some people (probably most) like to live in ignorant bliss, and it's their choice i suppose. So i think it's important to find an appropriate moment for these things, when they aren't going to get offensive about it.

Personally, i'd rather not say anything to my friends anymore, because they gang up on me. Even the one friend who i've spoken to individually about it, and who agreed with me and even gave vegetarianism a go, joined the others in ganging up on me :rolleyes: :mad:

Exedous
26-02--2006, 03:13 PM
It makes me laugh, when Omni's get all uppity about my chosen "diet". Im happily munching away, and they are getting all stressed, because....wait..."im putting them of thier meat".....hahahahahahahahahaha

Serves ya right!!!!

:patch:

Atomik
26-02--2006, 03:25 PM
It's a tough one. The more i think about it, the more i wonder why meat eaters can't hack it if we start saying things whilst they're eating meat. I mean, after all, they don't agree with us, right? So it shouldn't bother them. To be fair, if I didn't agree with someone's ethical point of view, it would really get up my nose if they kept trying to shove it down my throat, whether they had a valid point or not.

Whirler
26-02--2006, 03:26 PM
Personally, i'd rather not say anything to my friends anymore, because they gang up on me. Even the one friend who i've spoken to individually about it, and who agreed with me and even gave vegetarianism a go, joined the others in ganging up on me :rolleyes: :mad:Awww - you need new friends! Generally when people gang up to take the piss, whatever you say won't shut them up so you either need to develop a quick, sarcastic wit to belittle them or ignore them at which point they may just get bored.

It really weirds me out that for a diet that's existed for thousands of years, people still can't get their heads around it.

Whirler
26-02--2006, 03:29 PM
To be fair, if I didn't agree with someone's ethical point of view, it would really get up my nose if they kept trying to shove it down my throat, whether they had a valid point or not.Well isn't that why preached-to meat-eaters do get defensive? Whether they agree or understand is irrelevant - nobody likes to be challenged over their lifestyle choice and I think it's made worse if they know about the meat industry. So using a person's guilt may just push them further away as it can lead to a justification process in their mind.

Starling
26-02--2006, 03:40 PM
To be fair, if I didn't agree with someone's ethical point of view, it would really get up my nose if they kept trying to shove it down my throat, whether they had a valid point or not.

I didn't mean telling them multiple times, each time when they're eating meat. As, i agree, that would be really annoying for them, as it would be for me.... actually, as it IS for me! I've noticed that i'm never the one to bring up dietry issues with my friends, it's always them, asking me if i'm still veggie, and then telling me i should get some meat down me, which then leads me to telling them exactly what i think about them eating meat, and the debate begins! I'd actually rather not mention it all as i'm sick of explaining myself, and hearing how much my friends love meat and see nothing wrong with eating it.

Starling
26-02--2006, 03:53 PM
Awww - you need new friends! Generally when people gang up to take the piss, whatever you say won't shut them up so you either need to develop a quick, sarcastic wit to belittle them or ignore them at which point they may just get bored.

It really weirds me out that for a diet that's existed for thousands of years, people still can't get their heads around it.


I think this friend that gave it a go, actually didn't agree with me at all about the ethical issues (although she didn't say that), but did it purely for health reasons. I even printed her out a poster for her fridge, u know the one that says something about looking at animals in peace now you don't eat them anymore, and it was that night i gave it to her that she joined my other friend to gang up on me. She still has it on her fridge to this day, and says she intends to go veggie one day. From what i see her eat, i doubt it. As much as i love her as a friend, everytime i think about how much i do, i remember that time, and it affects the way i think about her a little.

I'm actually not very good at sarcastic wit! :p My friends always give me the whole 'food-chain' excuse, and how it's natural we eat meat because we're the higher species. My response to that is usually just that we don't need meat to survive, and that we're capable of moral choice, unlike other species that eat meat.

Atomik
26-02--2006, 04:10 PM
I've noticed that i'm never the one to bring up dietry issues with my friends, it's always them, asking me if i'm still veggie, and then telling me i should get some meat down meYeah, this is one of those strange ironies that I've noticed. Veggies are always getting accused of preaching, and yet it's usually meat-eaters who're trying to shove their opinions down our throats while we quietly try and get on with our lives.

Exedous
26-02--2006, 04:16 PM
Yeah, this is one of those strange ironies that I've noticed. Veggies are always getting accused of preaching, and yet it's usually meat-eaters who're trying to shove their opinions down our throats while we quietly try and get on with our lives.

Well said...:clap:

:patch:

Anusha
26-02--2006, 04:17 PM
Seriously though ... is it wrong to challenge the meat eating behaviour of others or should I just quietly let them get on with it?

I agree with Spyder and all those who mentioned timing.... I wouldnt dream of making a randon throw away comment when a friend is actualy eating the stuff... but i'm ready to defend my stance on the meat industry if i'm challenged...people are more receptive if they have started the debate...

I often have meat eating friends round to dinner...and i've probably had more success converting them to vegetarianism by being silent and just cooking a wow meal...and i'm guessing thats because many meat eaters do so out of laziness or ignorance of how easy, tasty and nutricious veggie food can be... i mean....i cant see that you would ever see a thread here or anywhere saying... "If there was no meat on the planet...would you stand by your principles and starve...or eat a veggie diet and survive?"...it just isnt issue...meat eaters just dont want to think about what they are eating...when they do...thats the time to educate them... otherwise all you'll get is a lot of defensive anger...imo

Milo
26-02--2006, 04:45 PM
The suggestion to "get some new friends" had occurred to me too, but then I thought about some of mine. If they're my friends, or people with whom I get along very well, then they are likely to be nice people! Is that a fair deduction? (Apart from the meat issue).

Amongst them are some who say the most apparently uncaring things such as, on "rare" steak,

"Just wipe it's arse and put it on the plate"

or

"I won't eat anything which hasn't looked through a gate".

What I'm getting around to is that perhaps the most aggressively defensive folks might well be the prime targets for us to help develop a brave new veggie / vegan world.
:)

Starling
26-02--2006, 05:13 PM
The suggestion to "get some new friends" had occurred to me too, but then I thought about some of mine.

The suggestion is a good one, if it means finding new ones, but keeping old ones. It's nice to find people who think the same way you do, that you can relate to. Getting rid of old friends isn't an option, where differences in opinion, such as this one, are concerned. These are friends who i met on my first day at school, almost 20 years ago, and still have regular contact with. I just turned veggie 2 years ago, so i'm not about to let that stop me being friends with anyone, since 2 years i was doing exactly what they are doing now. Maybe they will change one day, but even if they don't, i won't abandon them, just like i'd never abondon my family for eating meat. If however, they got really nasty about the whole thing, and it happened regularly, then i'd have to re-think my friendship with them.

Whirler
26-02--2006, 05:51 PM
I was only half-joking when I said get some new friends!!! :D I know how rare it can be to find good, honest real friends.

As for the food chain issue - if one of your friends visited the jungle and came face-to-face with a carnivorous beast, who'd be at the top of the food chain then? Maybe you should suggest they try it :whistle:

You should also mention that you'd like to see them bring down a cow with their bare hands and prepare their own food.

Hey ho :D

Paul
26-02--2006, 10:08 PM
My "throwaway comment" was actually said more as a tease than preaching, they just decided to take it that way.

I mentioned it to another mate of mine, an omni and relapsed veggie ... he just said "let's face it, we all feel bad about it but we're hopelessly hooked. Nobody wants reminding of something that they already know about"

I guess it's like smoking ... As a non-smoker I doubt I'd say "They give you cancer you know?" and start coughing everytime someone sparks up.

Anusha
26-02--2006, 10:20 PM
I guess it's like smoking ... As a non-smoker I doubt I'd say "They give you cancer you know?" and start coughing everytime someone sparks up.

oh i dont know..that usualy works on smokers lol.... but people are more defensive about their eating habits...i guess its a survival thing we have imprinted in us...even veggies dont like to be preached to by vegans...so...i do my bit and leave people to eat what they choose to...its a sore subject for most...

Milo
26-02--2006, 10:33 PM
i do my bit and leave people to eat what they choose to...its a sore subject for most...........for most (farm) animals?

I guess I'm getting predictable, but unless one is veggie for no reason other than disliking the taste / texture of meat, then surely it's because one cares about the animals. If you properly care about the animals, how can you do so and consistently "leave people to eat what they choose"?

Anusha
27-02--2006, 02:51 AM
........for most (farm) animals?

I guess I'm getting predictable, but unless one is veggie for no reason other than disliking the taste / texture of meat, then surely it's because one cares about the animals. If you properly care about the animals, how can you do so and consistently "leave people to eat what they choose"?

WTF.... go preach to someone else Milo... dont take one thing out of context and twist it... I also said that its all about timing and that i have converted friends by showing them they can be veggies rather than just ramming my point of view in their faces...

and dont DARE tell me that if i properly care about animals i wouldnt leave people to eat what they choose...

Atomik
27-02--2006, 07:49 AM
Can we keep it civil please?


and dont DARE tell me that if i properly care about animals i wouldnt leave people to eat what they choose...I don't think he told you anything. Milo posed a question.


If you properly care about the animals, how can you do so and consistently "leave people to eat what they choose"?Now that's not an unreasonable question to pose as the starting point for a debate, is it? It's one I've posed myself many times, and to which I still haven't entirely worked out the answer.

Anusha
27-02--2006, 08:05 AM
Can we keep it civil please?

I don't think he told you anything. Milo posed a question.

Now that's not an unreasonable question to pose as the starting point for a debate, is it? It's one I've posed myself many times, and to which I still haven't entirely worked out the answer.

i disagree...Milo quoted me 3 times in one post...first he added on (farm) animals, to the end of one of my sentences...in effect putting words in my mouth that were not how it was intended... then he took another sentance out of context ignoring all i had said around it which again totaly changed the intent of what i was saying....and he finaly ended by saying that how could I properly care for animals if i consistently... (and he quotes me again here) leave people to eat what they choose...

I took Milos post for exactly what it was....a direct attack on my opinions rather than a discussion on the subject. I took offence at the way he added to and distorted my opinion.

I fully intend to keep it civil Dok if that is what you wish....but i should be shown the same courtesy in return. It was my perogative to take offence when it was my post that was being disected and edited by another member.

Atomik
27-02--2006, 09:52 AM
i disagree...Milo quoted me 3 times in one post...first he added on (farm) animals, to the end of one of my sentences...in effect putting words in my mouth that were not how it was intended... then he took another sentance out of context ignoring all i had said around it which again totaly changed the intent of what i was saying....and he finaly ended by saying that how could I properly care for animals if i consistently... (and he quotes me again here) leave people to eat what they choose...

I took Milos post for exactly what it was....a direct attack on my opinions rather than a discussion on the subject. I took offence at the way he added to and distorted my opinion.That's not how I read it at all. However, launching into an attack on Milo isn't going to resolve anything - it's jsut going to start an argument. If you feel that's what he's done, then please point it out politely.


I fully intend to keep it civil Dok if that is what you wish....but i should be shown the same courtesy in return.And I expect you to be shown the same courtesy in return.


It was my perogative to take offence when it was my post that was being disected and edited by another member.Take offence by all means. But please respond politely and with civility.

joudicaa
27-02--2006, 02:16 PM
Earlier on a friend sat in front of me eating a sausage sandwich ... I made some throwaway comment about how that sausage was once a real life animal before having it's throat cut and dying a horrible death.

all you were doing is staing a fact mate, if they can't handle it then perhaps they should change their habits.

spacehopper
27-02--2006, 03:53 PM
Yeah, this is one of those strange ironies that I've noticed. Veggies are always getting accused of preaching, and yet it's usually meat-eaters who're trying to shove their opinions down our throats while we quietly try and get on with our lives.
Although I've helped out on veggie and general AR information stalls (where people came to us if they were interested, we didn't approach them), I've never been one to comment on my omnivorous friends or work collegue's eating habits, but they have always felt my dietary choice fair game for riducule and snide comment. It was bad enough when I was vegetarian, but when I became vegan it got even worse. Most people these days can understand why you wouldn't want to eat meat, but few can grasp why dairy products and eggs are off the menu as well. I don't make a big thing about my diet, I keep it to myself as much as possible, but when people find out they can't help but comment and it's rarely positive.

Atomik
27-02--2006, 04:02 PM
I don't make a big thing about my diet, I keep it to myself as much as possible, but when people find out they can't help but comment and it's rarely positive.Exactly. I'm much the same. At work, I don't think I've ever mentioned my diet to anyone (except other veggies), and yet it still seems to come up as a topic of conversation reasonably frequently. Which makes it seem strange to me that this myth of the preachy veggie still persists. Sure, they exist. But in my experience, meat-eaters are much more interested in preaching to us than we are in preaching to them.

Starling
28-02--2006, 02:48 PM
Most people these days can understand why you wouldn't want to eat meat, but few can grasp why dairy products and eggs are off the menu as well.

But i love the response you get when you tell someone you don't eat eggs. First they laugh in your face, then say "eggs aren't baby chickens you know!".... :rolleyes: No shit. At least then you can laugh in their face and tell them it's actually because of the cruelty involved in obtaining eggs, both battery and free range.