PDA

View Full Version : TRANSIT engine advice...



jonqrandom
19-10--2009, 01:05 PM
my engine chucked a hissy fit last time i drove my van, i've had one guy advise me to replace the whole engine, just wondering whether any of you guys can confirm that advice or offer alternatives - obviously i don't want to spend more than i need to! also, if you have any advice to share on the subject of replacing the whole engine vs. replacing just the pistons and block i'd appreciate it :thumbup:

to be more specific, last time i drove, after about 15 minutes on the road, the exhaust started smoking like a bonfire whenever the engine idled, and the engine overheated, forcing me to refill the cooling system with cold water before returning home.

the engine is a 2.5 diesel, without turbo, in a 2000 W reg transit (the last of the '95 models, NOT the first of the 2000s!). i believe the engine is a "76", or possibly a "70", if that means anything to you. i've been running it happily on veg oil for over a year now, just adding a little unleaded during the colder months.

the other symptoms it displays are; smoking much more than usual on startup, having both fuel and moisture in the sump (yeah!!!:(), and running on 3 cylinders briefly when starting, going back to 4 within about 30 seconds.

thanks for taking the time to read this, anyhow! :)

JimBeam
19-10--2009, 02:04 PM
my engine chucked a hissy fit last time i drove my van, i've had one guy advise me to replace the whole engine, just wondering whether any of you guys can confirm that advice or offer alternatives - obviously i don't want to spend more than i need to! also, if you have any advice to share on the subject of replacing the whole engine vs. replacing just the pistons and block i'd appreciate it :thumbup:

to be more specific, last time i drove, after about 15 minutes on the road, the exhaust started smoking like a bonfire whenever the engine idled, and the engine overheated, forcing me to refill the cooling system with cold water before returning home.

the engine is a 2.5 diesel, without turbo, in a 2000 W reg transit (the last of the '95 models, NOT the first of the 2000s!). i believe the engine is a "76", or possibly a "70", if that means anything to you. i've been running it happily on veg oil for over a year now, just adding a little unleaded during the colder months.

the other symptoms it displays are; smoking much more than usual on startup, having both fuel and moisture in the sump (yeah!!!:(), and running on 3 cylinders briefly when starting, going back to 4 within about 30 seconds.

thanks for taking the time to read this, anyhow! :)

This sounds quite a bit like a blown head gasket, allowing coolant to enter the oil and maybe the cylinders. That usually explains why coolant goes missing and it does smoke like a sailor. Changing the head gasket is MUCH cheaper and more common than changing the whole engine!! Do a compression/leakdown test and you'll know more about what it is.

joebloe
19-10--2009, 02:05 PM
Sounds like yer head gasket blown to me.If,when the engine is runnin, its not actually making any harsh metallic banging noises (fnar fnar), then you may be lucky.Got a feeling that yer piston rings prob need replacing too (moisture in sump).If its much more than that, I would look out for a deal on a whole engine.Maybe from a scrapped one, theres usually always a cheap Tranny going on a travellers site.Van that is!!

Oakstar
19-10--2009, 02:39 PM
There is a transit van forum you may find usefull http://fordtransit.org/forum/ good luck with your lump

rambo
19-10--2009, 02:41 PM
As long as it is a head gasket and not another problem ,such as a faulty injector,causing overheating.These engines,(I'm assuming it's a DI),don't often blow headgaskets and will run a long time with a slight leak.A reagent test on the coolant would confirm that.It could also be a cracked piston.Rebuilding these engines is not normally economic as there's plenty of good running ones out there in very rusty vans.DIs are also not the most tolerant of veg oil.

stardust
19-10--2009, 03:59 PM
i would say check round the scrap yards. i had to scrap my tranny with a perfectly good engine in it because the body had rusted to fuck and the council were threatening to fine me for abandonning it so i didn't have time to break it for parts.

the engine was excellent and had years left in it, and that was a far older model than yours.

good luck with your search. :)

jonqrandom
19-10--2009, 04:21 PM
thanks for the responses! i've looked up leakdown testing, i'm gonna look for a garage to do that, but what's a "reagent test on the coolant", and what does it tell me? sorry for my ignorance!

rambo
19-10--2009, 05:46 PM
thanks for the responses! i've looked up leakdown testing, i'm gonna look for a garage to do that, but what's a "reagent test on the coolant", and what does it tell me? sorry for my ignorance!There's a chemical test that can be done on the cooling system,(a good garage should have the kit,or you can buy them on fleabay),that will show if combustion gases are finding there way into the coolant,(sign of head gasket issues).It worked well on one of mine that had been badly overheated by a previous owner,turned out the gasket had gone and the head was also warped.

MINTY
19-10--2009, 09:13 PM
I would say if the engine has been badly overheated, don't even bother taking it apart. As rambo and stardust said, there's loads of these engines about for not much money, but no decent bodies for them to go in!! If it hasn't been badly overheated, I would take the head off and have a look. I doubt the rings are at fault to be honest. If fuel is getting into the sump, check the lift pump diaphragm isn't split. (I assume DIs have a normal lift pump? I've never had one)

I would say that most engines get fucked sooner or later when run on veg oil......, I wouldn't say thats what caused the gasket to blow, but it doesn't do injection systems any good.

julianthegypsy
19-10--2009, 10:00 PM
I would say if the engine has been badly overheated, don't even bother taking it apart. As rambo and stardust said, there's loads of these engines about for not much money, but no decent bodies for them to go in!! If it hasn't been badly overheated, I would take the head off and have a look. I doubt the rings are at fault to be honest. If fuel is getting into the sump, check the lift pump diaphragm isn't split. (I assume DIs have a normal lift pump? I've never had one)

I would say that most engines get fucked sooner or later when run on veg oil......, I wouldn't say thats what caused the gasket to blow, but it doesn't do injection systems any good.
There are plenty of buses that have done a million miles on veg oil, it really shouldnt harm your injection system. The only thing to bear in mind is that if you want to run exclusively on veg then you need to change all the rubber components in the system, including any seals. The ones normally fitted are designed to withstand mineral oil as opposed to vegetable. If you switch from mineral to veg you will also need to change the filters after a few hundred miles, veg oil actually CLEANS the fuel system, and all the resulting kack will clog things up. It's not the veg oil, its the crap left over from the normal fuel.

MINTY
19-10--2009, 10:33 PM
The problem comes with the heavier viscosity of the stuff, not so much of a problem in the summer, but even then, it's still too heavy to be used straight. In the winter, will need even more thinning with petrol or diesel or whatever. CAV rotary pumps don't like it very much at all.......

rambo
19-10--2009, 10:47 PM
The problem comes with the heavier viscosity of the stuff, not so much of a problem in the summer, but even then, it's still too heavy to be used straight. In the winter, will need even more thinning with petrol or diesel or whatever. CAV rotary pumps don't like it very much at all.......I've seen CAV pumps fail quite soon on veg oil the Bosch ones seem to last longer.The alternative to thining is to pre heat the veg oil.That does make the fuel system a bit involved though.Wether or not there is a seperate lift pump depends on the year/model,some were built into the injection pump,although the impelor is stainless steel.I have seen them jam though(normally water in the fuel/standing unused)

julianthegypsy
20-10--2009, 08:31 AM
More to do with the quality of the oil rather than whether its veg. . As I said, if you want to run pure you have to change the seals, else run a mix. 10% diesel should do. Modern diesel also has additives to stop it waxing up in winter, years ago, and up until fairly recently in colder countries, they used to heat the tank, and often fit a fuel filter heater to stop it clogging the filter.

jonqrandom
20-10--2009, 05:30 PM
rambo, thanks for the explanation! :)

as for everything else;

the engine temp didn't make it across the gauge before i stopped and refilled the coollant system (it wasn't empty, but obviously pissed out everywhere due to the pressure), nor did it overheat at all afterwards, so hopefully i've avoided heat damage.

i finally managed to get hold of my old mechanic's phone number - he's miles away from me now, sadly. anyway, i discussed doing a leakdown test with him, and he pointed out that the compressed air will simply follow whatever path the fuel did from the cylinders to the sump without revealing if it's the head gasket or a piston ring to blame - if you're sure he's wrong about that, please explain! :) he did suggest that i get the head off and leave diesel in the cylinders overnight, as if one has a bust piston ring, the level will drop faster than the others.

as for veg oil; first, yes, i changed the fuel filter, i knew about that :)
second, as i mentioned in the OP, i add petrol as required to thin the veg oil.
third, the engine parts veg oil kills usually (from what i've read) die within very few months if they're going to die from it, veg oil enthusiats swear by bosch parts, which i have. lucas pumps, from what i've read, die within three months of light to medium use.
fourth, modern (post 2k) diesel injectors are made to ridiculous tolerances and choke on veg something chronic, whereas older ones like those on my engine have much wider apertures, and suffer much less if at all.
fifth, again purely my understanding from reading up on the subject, rubber hoses went out of fashion with manufacturers in favour of synthetic ones in the early nineties.

before i started running veg (over a year ago) i read up for a couple of days on the subject, and also managed to find someone else who'd been running veg in their van (same engine as mine, same method) for over two years with no problems. bearing in mind this was not just my vehicle but my only home at the time i started running veg, i wasn't about to just chuck it in the tank and cross my fingers.

tbh, i'll have to check the service history, but i'm not sure when my van last (if it all) had the head gasket replaced, and i think it's pushing 180k miles now... maybe that has something to do with it... :whistle:

jonqrandom
20-10--2009, 08:15 PM
lol, i'm losing it, it's 130k! :o:insane:

rambo
20-10--2009, 08:57 PM
DIs are normally good for 250,000 miles .I've had them do 330,000 with nothing but routine maintainance.It might be worth getting the injectors taken out and checked/cleaned.also remove the rocker cover and turn the engine over manually and make sure none of the valves are sticking.you could get a compression test done instead of a leakdown test,but as your mechanic says it might not be conclusive.Taking the cylinder head off for a look is all good and well,but not that easy with the engine in the van.Do the simplest things first and go from there :whistle:.It's also a question of economics,because as has been said elsewhere there's plenty of good engines out there in terminally rusty vans.

jonqrandom
21-10--2009, 04:24 PM
yeah, thanks :) i'll give those a shot first... if they don't solve it then apparently i should be able to get the head off with the engine in situ, and tbh once i've got that far, if it is a blown gasket then all (lmao) i have to do is buy a new one and put it all back together... if the problem's any further down then it will indeed be new engine time.

why does this kind of thing never happen in summer? :/

rambo
21-10--2009, 05:41 PM
The head will come off in situ,but the bolts nearest the bulkhead can be fun :whistle:.Try not to give yourself a hernia lifting the head.If you take the head off check the tops of the pistons carefully,I've seen more than a few crack :(

jonqrandom
22-10--2009, 12:06 AM
yeah, it's pretty tight up at the back - will a universal joint help, and should one take the necessary force? 3/8" or 1/2" drive? i need to replace a stolen socket set anyway, so this is the perfect excuse to sort that out! and yeah, good point - if they seem iffy, could i post photos on here for advice? again, thankyou :)

JimBeam
22-10--2009, 01:25 AM
yeah, it's pretty tight up at the back - will a universal joint help, and should one take the necessary force? 3/8" or 1/2" drive? i need to replace a stolen socket set anyway, so this is the perfect excuse to sort that out! and yeah, good point - if they seem iffy, could i post photos on here for advice? again, thankyou :)

Hey, universal joints and socket sets come in different qualities.. The cheap ones won't make it. I've had a cheap one break just from undoing the sump plug to change the oil. I use 1/2" drive for most of the stuff I do, just cause that was what I first got. If you can afford it and it fits where you want it to fit, get impact sockets. You can the use them with an impact wrench in the future if you ever get one and I've never seen one break! The other IMPORTANT thing to bear in mind is that taking an engine apart is much easier than putting it back together. I would advise against trying to put it back together without a torque wrench. You need to tighten the bolts to a specified torque to ensure it makes a good seal with the gasket and doesn't crack the housing. Yeah, please do post pictures! I always find it helpful to look at pictures of a same engine as the one I'm working on, to have a visual idea of how things should normally look like if I've never seen the insides of one before. Others will find it useful in the future and you can get some advice from others here with previous experience.

julianthegypsy
22-10--2009, 07:31 AM
Unless you're working on really big things, I'd get a good quality 3/8" set. Half inch tend to be too cumbersome and awkward to get into places. You dont need to go mad, something like halfords professional series are good enough and lifetime guaranteed. Cheap sockets are made of cheap steel so are made thicker to compensate. Its a real pisser when your socket won't fit into a recess to undo a bolt because its too thick. Ditto on the torque wrench, its essential for doing cylinder heads.

rambo
22-10--2009, 08:21 AM
Halford's profeesional actually have a better guarantee than Snap on,(unless you are always dealing with them),but not the same posing status.There's not a lot of room at the back of the transit engine bay.A Hayne's mauel is a good i (investment.@photo's)nvestment.Photos are always worth posting/fun.:whistle:

jonqrandom
22-10--2009, 11:08 AM
yeah, i have a 1/2" torque wrench, but if its lower torque setting is too high for any of the nuts and bolts, then i've only seen the lower range on 3/8" wrenches... if that's the case, i'll still get 1/2" drive sockets, and get a 3/8" to 1/2" adaptor. i doubt i can afford impact sockets, as i really need an entire new set anyway, although i might get an impact socket in whatever size the highest torque bolts are!

i'll take pix in stages as i take the head off, it'll help me put it back together anyway, i've never found haynes manuals that easy to read (although i'll be using one too). then i can slap the lot online, hopefully they'll be of use :)

MINTY
22-10--2009, 06:22 PM
Impact sockets with hand tools are totally unneccecery, you will find they are too thick in the wall to get round many bolts. They are designed for use on air impact tools etc. I've never bought really expensive tools, mainly because i'm not the tidyest person, and tend to lose things. Most of mine are Draper Expert, Kamasa, Laser, and makes like that. Lower end of the market really, but I've very rarely broken anything, and most of my work is on old lorries and machinery. I prefer 6 point sockets, instead of the more common 12 point, they are less likely to round off bolt heads, if the bolts are very tight, or have been mullered before. I've never really used a torque wrench on anything other than cylinder heads, everything else I just do up by feel, but I work on machines day in day out, so it's down to experience i suppose. A 1/2" torque wrench and socket set will do nearly everything really, a lot of people like 3/8 i know, but i've always used 1/2", and a 1/4" drive set for the little jobs.

julianthegypsy
22-10--2009, 07:12 PM
I got converted to 3/8" a long time ago and find my 1/2" set a pain in the arse. Bear in mind that some of the stuff Ive worked on needed 3/4" too, I'd very rarely reach for a half inch anything. Ditto on the impacts, unless you're getting a compressor and an impact wrench I would'nt personally bother. If you do get a compressor, the tool I used most was my air ratchet, awesome bit of kit. Draper expert etc, same as halfords professional, any of those work but I wouldn't go cheaper.

Grendel
22-10--2009, 08:29 PM
impact sockets are essential for brake callipers if you are changing discsas they sieze somethinkg wicked and rust to heck, other than that and exhaust nuts I think ordinary sockets are good enough, for really tough bolts get the hex sockets not the 16 point ones, the hexes wont slip and strip the bolt heads.
Grendel

JimBeam
22-10--2009, 11:42 PM
Ditto on the Hex ones! As for impact sockets, I suggested it as I am now regretting having to buy impact types to use with the impact wrench that I've finally got now, while having bought about 3-4 14mm sockets as they constantly break when bolts seize up.. Impact can also be applied with a hammer on the handle of a cheap non-rotating socket tool, which I have found useful in the past, as well as using 6 foot scaffolding pipes as extension bars.. Driveshaft nuts are a good example of when I've needed to do that.. Good luck..

julianthegypsy
23-10--2009, 07:20 AM
Have you tried good old fashioned plus-gas? It's ace for freeing things up...

rambo
23-10--2009, 08:53 AM
Or a little bit of heat,on occasion .:flame::whistle:

julianthegypsy
23-10--2009, 09:44 AM
Or a little bit of heat,on occasion .:flame::whistle:
Or both...:reddevil:

JimBeam
23-10--2009, 11:22 AM
Or a little bit of heat,on occasion .:flame::whistle:

I've never dared to use a torch on really rusty things since the last time I had a look at what Thermite is... :eek:

...especially with the fuel lines still in place! :suicide:

Things like free-up liquids always help.. I've also got some industrial anti-seize compound (grease) that I put on every bolt and nut that wouldn't mind having some and never had any problems wherever I put it yet..

julianthegypsy
23-10--2009, 12:23 PM
I've never dared to use a torch on really rusty things since the last time I had a look at what Thermite is... :eek:

...especially with the fuel lines still in place! :suicide:

Things like free-up liquids always help.. I've also got some industrial anti-seize compound (grease) that I put on every bolt and nut that wouldn't mind having some and never had any problems wherever I put it yet..
Dont put it on cylinder head studs, youll shear them off when you torque them down!

rambo
23-10--2009, 05:38 PM
I've never dared to use a torch on really rusty things since the last time I had a look at what Thermite is... :eek:

...especially with the fuel lines still in place! :suicide:

:greenlol::rofl:.I don't think the thermite reaction really applies to warming the odd rusty not up,it takes a bit more than that.As for the fuel lines that depends how near you are to them:whistle:

jonqrandom
23-10--2009, 10:33 PM
yeah, :flame:s are handy lol :D also, i was thinking about soaking everything i can get to (well, everything i have to twist or separate) in WD40 for a day or two before i get going... is that gonna help? also (and i feel like a muppet having to ask lol), why do greased cylinder head studs shear when you torque them on?

rambo
23-10--2009, 11:11 PM
yeah, :flame:s are handy lol :D also, i was thinking about soaking everything i can get to (well, everything i have to twist or separate) in WD40 for a day or two before i get going... is that gonna help? also (and i feel like a muppet having to ask lol), why do greased cylinder head studs shear when you torque them on?I think I'd be more concerned about grease on bolts going into threaded holes.The hydraulic action of compressing the grease will cause false torque readings.I've never really had a problem with studs(apart from them coming out with the nut still attached).WD40 might help,I don't usually bother though.You'll probably find the head on a DI will come off easy enough,as long as you don't forget any bolts,(some can be hard to see,with the amount of oil laying in the head).

julianthegypsy
24-10--2009, 08:06 AM
yeah, :flame:s are handy lol :D also, i was thinking about soaking everything i can get to (well, everything i have to twist or separate) in WD40 for a day or two before i get going... is that gonna help? also (and i feel like a muppet having to ask lol), why do greased cylinder head studs shear when you torque them on?
WD40 will help, but it's a multi-purpose kind of thing. Plus-gas and other penetrating oils are designed specifically to soak into seized up threads and free them up and work far better. If you grease bolts it makes them easier to do up because theres less friction between the threads, therefore you get them much tighter for the same amount of effort. Too tight and bang. Golden rule is do what it says in the manual.
The other danger with greasing anything going into a blind hole is that apart from the danger already described, i.e. wrong torque readings, you can get a hydraulic lock and crack the casting. I've seen that happen on countless tractor housings, not nice and very expensive. Always be sure to thoroughly clean any hole before you put a bolt into it. The effort required to blow a casting apart by squeezing grease in a threaded hole is minimal, you will be happily doing up your bolt and bang, a chunk out of the side of it. Fucksticks.

jonqrandom
24-10--2009, 09:00 AM
wow! :eek: thanks for the warnings and explanations! again, i have to ask another stupid question, what can i use to clean threaded holes with, without leaving bits of it in the hole? and yeah, i can't see regretting buying some plus-gas, is it worth buying the more expensive aerosol?

julianthegypsy
24-10--2009, 09:21 AM
wow! :eek: thanks for the warnings and explanations! again, i have to ask another stupid question, what can i use to clean threaded holes with, without leaving bits of it in the hole? and yeah, i can't see regretting buying some plus-gas, is it worth buying the more expensive aerosol?
Plus-gas is plus-gas, I have an aerosol at the mo cos thats all they had in the shop. I'd have bought the ordinary if they had it. Bit of cloth on a screwdriver twisted around. Blow gun on a compressor is perfect if you have one, it really blows the shit out. Dont worry too much, as long as you heed the warning and clean things out it will be fine. It's when you don't think about it and try to do up a bolt in a hole half full of oil that things go badly wrong....

jonqrandom
24-11--2009, 12:20 PM
hey! so i actually managed to find a mechanic i could afford to have fix it, and she's going fine now - not that she ever really lost power anyway! xD so i'm sat in the MOT station right now, hoping the news ain't TOO bad!

stardust
24-11--2009, 12:24 PM
fingers crossed for you and sending loads of positive MOT vibes in your direction!

jonqrandom
24-11--2009, 12:41 PM
fingers crossed for you and sending loads of positive MOT vibes in your direction!

thankyou VERY much! i think it's just finished so i'll find out any second now! eek lol!

stardust
24-11--2009, 12:42 PM
i am feeling the tension for you.....infact you have temporarily transported me in my head back to my transit MOTs. i am not in a happy place now!!

jonqrandom
24-11--2009, 01:50 PM
omg sorry! *HUGS* i hope it cheers you up to know that it went pretty well, failed on brakes (which i expected), anti-roll linkages and a stop light lol! it's booked in to have the work done tomorrow, so i shall be roadworthy once more very soon now! :D

stardust
24-11--2009, 01:56 PM
nice one, i'm very happy for you! :D it does cheer me up!

*edit* OMFG this was my 11,000th post.

jonqrandom
24-11--2009, 01:58 PM
hehee cool! :D

jonqrandom
25-11--2009, 05:52 PM
just back from the MOT re-test, she passed! :D and i have enough money left for tax! :D

stardust
25-11--2009, 05:53 PM
:woohoo:

wooooooohooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

transits rule! :D

Jayen4
27-11--2009, 01:29 AM
Well,I know what's up with this engine,but I'm not allowed to give my opinion. If I do,I'm likely to get banned again,so you'll have to sort it out yourself. Sorry..... :(

jonqrandom
29-11--2009, 02:29 PM
:woohoo:

wooooooohooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

transits rule! :D

YAYAYAYAY back on the road! it's awesome! :D


Well,I know what's up with this engine,but I'm not allowed to give my opinion. If I do,I'm likely to get banned again,so you'll have to sort it out yourself. Sorry..... :(

uh ... oh - kay ... :eek: