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matthew
10-06--2006, 11:44 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5060468.stm

Hip Hip Hooray..

Dapablo
10-06--2006, 10:01 PM
Good to see you so happy Mathew. Another thug gone, can't be bad, shame no trial was involved though.

Milo
10-06--2006, 10:37 PM
I think it's pretty sick to rejoice over anyone's death. A fair trial, a finding of guilt and a long / life sentence would have been a better result.

trin
10-06--2006, 10:58 PM
So now he'll be a martyr and could prove even more problematic dead than alive.

jenni
11-06--2006, 12:16 PM
i can't quite tell how serious you're being....but meh....

point is, it's horrific that in a so called modern age, having been through a supposed enlightenment and apparently prrogressed as a civilisation, that anyone could rejoice at death. ever. sure, it's great that one particular man won't be personally seeing to the destruction of further lives....but there's plenty of other folk, 'terrorists' and 'soldiers' and every other group we can think of, to carry on the carnage....and the minute we ever let ourselves think that it's a good thing to have taken a life is the time when we lose our right to be taken seriously....sure, there are factors that might make this particular death in some sick way useful to some, but it's still death - the ending of life. it should always be considered wrong that we live in a world where we still find ourselves killing each other and having it be justified....on each side of every conflict/war/uprising/disagreement/whateverthehell....so yeah....

Atomik
11-06--2006, 12:23 PM
I pretty much agree with all that's been said. Even if you think the world will be a better place as a result of this guy's death, it's obscene and dehumanising to cheer it. Consider it rather a necessary evil if you believe his execution was justified. But don't celebrate death.

Perthite
11-06--2006, 01:39 PM
i think it's a case of misunderstood sarcasm here

more ....s next time mathew:whistle:

Paul
11-06--2006, 01:58 PM
What about when dear old Mrs Thatcher pops her clogs?

I remember a thread on HF asking how people would celebrate her demise.

stardust
11-06--2006, 06:05 PM
What about when dear old Mrs Thatcher pops her clogs?

I remember a thread on HF asking how people would celebrate come her demise.

i was just thinking that myself.

no matter what you think of someone, i still wouldn't feel right to celebrate a death.

Atomik
11-06--2006, 07:12 PM
What about when dear old Mrs Thatcher pops her clogs?

I remember a thread on HF asking how people would celebrate her demise.Tongue in cheek is one thing. I still wouldn't wish her dead.

Milo
11-06--2006, 11:07 PM
Awww, isn't she a special case? Can't we make an exception? :D

matthew
16-06--2006, 04:16 PM
i think it's a case of misunderstood sarcasm here

more ....s next time mathew:whistle:

Nope no sarcasm.. I was rejoicing when i heard he had been killed.


Good to see you so happy Mathew. Another thug gone, can't be bad, shame no trial was involved though.

I'm happy as larry.


I think it's pretty sick to rejoice over anyone's death. A fair trial, a finding of guilt and a long / life sentence would have been a better result.

Well forgive me for not careing [milo]... he and his cohorts have orchestrated the deaths of many. He even had a hand in chopping a few heads off. I don't believe he gave the luxury of giveing them a 'trial'. For all the values i might have about fair and honest trials to some of those bastards.. I can't quite stretch that luxury to him. I'm thankful he is dead.. Since initialy posting this ANOTHER f**ker has taken his place. I hope he does not become as notorious as him...and he gets has the same fate as the Zarqawi . None of these will imho be willing to join the democracy .. So screw fair trials.. all those that are not willing to join the diplomatic table, i think deserve whatever fate they give out to their supposed countrymen and all those they are supposed to be fighting for.

matthew
16-06--2006, 04:29 PM
i can't quite tell how serious you're being....but meh....

point is, it's horrific that in a so called modern age, having been through a supposed enlightenment and apparently prrogressed as a civilisation, that anyone could rejoice at death. ever. sure, it's great that one particular man won't be personally seeing to the destruction of further lives....but there's plenty of other folk, 'terrorists' and 'soldiers' and every other group we can think of, to carry on the carnage....and the minute we ever let ourselves think that it's a good thing to have taken a life is the time when we lose our right to be taken seriously....sure, there are factors that might make this particular death in some sick way useful to some, but it's still death - the ending of life. it should always be considered wrong that we live in a world where we still find ourselves killing each other and having it be justified....on each side of every conflict/war/uprising/disagreement/whateverthehell....so yeah....

I happen to agree with a lot of what you have said... even so.

If you don't agree with me...

Don't take me seriously then ... It is difficult to articulate my feelings.. so i will not try. I am happy this one person has been killed. I don't get all joyous when members of the 'insurgency' die or soldiers die or whomever is fighting. My joy is reserved for this one person . It came to the point after watching what he has done.. i just wanted the F**KER DEAD.

Atomik
16-06--2006, 04:34 PM
It came to the point after watching what he has done.. i just wanted the F**KER DEAD.And that's exactly how these people come to commit atrocities in the first place. They stop thinking about their enemies as human beings, they abandon their sense of compassion, and they just want us all dead.

matthew
16-06--2006, 04:45 PM
And that's exactly how these people come to commit atrocities in the first place. They stop thinking about their enemies as human beings, they abandon their sense of compassion, and they just want us all dead.

So you think he witnessed what 'we' may have done and then lost compassion for those he decieded to kill ?... i don't think that is correct. He kills people who do not agree with him and his jihad.. his masters share even less compassion for anyone who does not shre their opinion. From speculation [ok something i hate] he may have been ratted out by somebody who thought he went to far when he started killing his fellow Jordanians.


I have plenty of compassion.. it just does not extend to him and his friends. They have shown no compassion at all...

I would have given him the opportunity to air his opinions with those he apposed. Let him and his partners come out of hiding and join the majority of people attempting to make the situation stable. stability is not what they wish. He was not my enemy.. he was a cruel a vicious bastard.. My thoughts are shared by members of the families he has touched with his evil.

I can't quite have a high moral debate about this to be honest.. i don't think he and his friends deserve it.

phil
19-06--2006, 09:50 AM
I'm with you on this one. For me there is a line you can cross when your life becomes worthless and you dont deserve compasion from society. This piece of shit was one of those. I'd put child killers in the same bracket.

Coyote
19-06--2006, 09:57 AM
Strange how some child killers are vilified in the media but others just get satire.....or even page 6 "ignored".....such as the greedy swine at Bhopal, the arms markets and the various US pretzeldents who bomb central america or the middleeast for profit.

Oceania is at war with Eurasia
Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia

Ms. Vee
19-06--2006, 10:10 AM
I'd put child killers in the same bracket.

I think it's interesting that we see child killers as more 'evil' than killers of adults. People say it's because children are innocents, but a lot of grown-ups are innocents too... (and some children have done way more bad things that adults...) Surely taking a life is taking a life?

phil
19-06--2006, 10:13 AM
I think it's interesting that we see child killers as more 'evil' than killers of adults. People say it's because children are innocents, but a lot of grown-ups are innocents too... (and some children have done way more bad things that adults...) Surely taking a life is taking a life?

Maybe its because an adult is seen as having the ability to defend themself and a child is supposed to be looked after.

Swirly
19-06--2006, 10:18 AM
I think it's interesting that we see child killers as more 'evil' than killers of adults. People say it's because children are innocents, but a lot of grown-ups are innocents too... (and some children have done way more bad things that adults...) Surely taking a life is taking a life?

I am completely lost for words !

matthew
20-06--2006, 04:26 PM
Strange how some child killers are vilified in the media but others just get satire.....or even page 6 "ignored".....such as the greedy swine at Bhopal, the arms markets and the various US pretzeldents who bomb central america or the middleeast for profit.


I think it is easier and more simplistic to get more people ''worked up'' about nasty men living next door to schools and such [even though for every 1 a 'megans law' would highlight their would be 4 un-noticed and unchecked]. Mount huge campaigns to highlight 'lenient sentences' [even though they are 3 times better than 10 years ago [ I DON'T REMEMBER CAPAIGNS GOING ON BACK THEN ?..].



Oceania is at war with Eurasia
Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia


Sigh, never bloody ends does it ?.

phil
21-06--2006, 09:42 AM
Well whatever the sentences used to be or are now, they are still nowhere near harsh enough. So i'm all for campaigning to get them increased.

Atomik
22-06--2006, 11:29 AM
For me there is a line you can cross when your life becomes worthless and you dont deserve compasion from society.For me there's a line we stand on the other side of that makes us noble and just. On our side of the line, we feel compassion for people whether they deserve it or not. If we stop feeling compassion for people just because we don't think they deserve it, then we're allowing ourselves to be dragged down by the evil in the world. And isn't that handing a form of victory to the evil-doers?

phil
22-06--2006, 01:24 PM
I dont agree. Evil doers, evil people, evil acts are all very real and need addressing. I feel no compasion for somebody who has done a truely evil act and in society we need to look after the good guys. I'd put it like this- If a lion was attacking you and intent on ripping your head off you couldnt reason with it. you'd either have to shoot it or let it win. I'm not without compasion by any means. My job is working with ex offenders, people with drug/alcohol problems etc etc. and i'm not judmental when doing this. However as i've said before, as a realist, i feel for real evil, a line needs drawing in the sand sometimes and an ultimate punishment available.

pteroophia
22-06--2006, 01:33 PM
Al-Zarqawi and Bin Laden aren't the terrorists, it was the American government that orchestrated an attack on its own soil to start a war of provocation, bit like pearl harbour and the gulf of tonkin

Atomik
22-06--2006, 01:35 PM
I dont agree. Evil doers, evil people, evil acts are all very real and need addressing. I have no problem with addressing it.


I feel no compasion for somebody who has done a truely evil act and in society we need to look after the good guys.Looking after the good guys does not need to mean sacrificing your compassion for the bad guys.


I'd put it like this- If a lion was attacking you and intent on ripping your head off you couldnt reason with it. you'd either have to shoot it or let it win.You're getting two issues confused. You can shoot the lion and still feel compassion for it.


I'm not without compasion by any means. My job is working with ex offenders, people with drug/alcohol problems etc etc. and i'm not judmental when doing this. However as i've said before, as a realist, i feel for real evil, a line needs drawing in the sand sometimes and an ultimate punishment available.I totally agree. I don't have any problem with taking whatever action is necessary. But we don't need to hate our enemies in order to deal with them and defend ourselves. Nor do we need to sacrifice our compassion. My problem isn't about this guy being killed.... it's about us celebrating it and taking pleasure in the act.

phil
22-06--2006, 01:43 PM
Fair comment. I have to confess though that i would feel a certain satisfaction and celebration of, for example, say ian huntly getting glassed/stabbed and bleedin to death in his cell. Maybe that makes me less noble but i hold my hands up and say it would put a smile on my face. and my compasion for him would be zero.

Atomik
22-06--2006, 01:45 PM
Fair comment. I have to confess though that i would feel a certain satisfaction and celebration of, for example, say ian huntly getting glassed/stabbed and bleedin to death in his cell. Maybe that makes me less noble but i hold my hands up and say it would put a smile on my face. and my compasion for him would be zero...... and while people continue to celebrate the suffering of others, the world will continue to be fucked up and turn out more people like Ian Huntley.

phil
22-06--2006, 01:55 PM
Yes i can see the logic there, and also how that cycle would work. Unfortunatly i cant help myself!

matthew
22-06--2006, 04:25 PM
Al-Zarqawi and Bin Laden aren't the terrorists, it was the American government that orchestrated an attack on its own soil to start a war of provocation, bit like pearl harbour and the gulf of tonkin

I wondered who would be the first person to say that. Unfortunatly no prizes are available. :whistle:

It is absolute bollocks..i won't even say ''imho'' . If you think that you are nuts i'm afraid.

pteroophia
23-06--2006, 11:40 PM
You're entitled to your opinion and so am I, but one day it'll all come out, just ask Hugo Chavez and Willie Rodriguez, don't think it's fair you call me nuts if you don't have all the facts yourself, when, if, they ever are released then come back to me

Swirly
24-06--2006, 11:19 AM
Looking after the good guys does not need to mean sacrificing your compassion for the bad guys.

.

but do they deserve compassion ?

phil
26-06--2006, 09:37 AM
Well thats been a long discusion. Some people think yes. I think no.

Atomik
26-06--2006, 09:51 AM
but do they deserve compassion ?That's the whole point though. It's easy feeling compassion for those that we believe deserve it. The mark of a civilised society is that we feel compassion for people whether we feel they deserve it or not. Look at it this way..... if muslim fanatics felt compassion for people who they didn't believe deserved it, then they wouldn't be blowing up innocents, would they? See how spreading the compassion can help make the world a better place? A lust for vengeance never built a better world. Sure, we can't always show mercy to our enemies, but we don't have to reslish their pain and death. Compassion costs us nothing and makes the world a better place.

Coyote
26-06--2006, 10:13 AM
Its very easy to say "compassion for everyone" when not being tested. I dont mean this nastily but "words are cheap".

Atomik
26-06--2006, 10:23 AM
Its very easy to say "compassion for everyone" when not being tested. I dont mean this nastily but "words are cheap".Sorry mate, but been there, done that, practiced what I preach.

I think there's often a lot of confusion between compassion and inaction. You can take the necessary action against your 'enemy' without compromising your compassion for them. As soon as you start enjoying the suffering of others, you become no better than the 'enemy' that you're supposedly fighting.

Coyote
26-06--2006, 10:26 AM
As soon as you start enjoying the suffering of others, you become no better than the 'enemy' that you're supposedly fighting.

I dont think either of us disagree with that. But sometimes hard-hearted action is required when compassion would result in one precious to us being harmed.

There is a difference between righteous anger and enjoying the pain of any.

Atomik
26-06--2006, 10:37 AM
But sometimes hard-hearted action is required...I don't think I ever disputed that. :D


....when compassion would result in one precious to us being harmed.And that would seem to be the point of confusion. There's no reason why compassion needs to result in inaction.


There is a difference between righteous anger and enjoying the pain of any.I think words like "righteous" are dangerous, personally. But let's just remember what started this train of discussion.... celebrating the death of an 'enemy' after the event. I wasn't taking issue with the action - I was taking issue with the concept of celebrating it. Death and killing should always be a matter for regret, even when we deem them necessary.

Coyote
26-06--2006, 10:48 AM
And that would seem to be the point of confusion. There's no reason why compassion needs to result in inaction.

Not innaction, but confusion and delay, muddying things that need to be dealt with clearly and quickly.


I think words like "righteous" are dangerous, personally. But let's just remember what started this train of discussion.... celebrating the death of an 'enemy' after the event. I wasn't taking issue with the action - I was taking issue with the concept of celebrating it. Death and killing should always be a matter for regret, even when we deem them necessary.

Do not ask for whom the bell tolls.....

Indeed. But too often that is taken as appropriate BEFORE the fact and leads to a dangerous delay.

Ok its a piss take (I am left of centre myself lol) but:

You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children.
Suddenly, an guy with bulging eyes and a huge knife comes around the
corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, he raises
the knife, and charges at you. You are carrying a Glock cal .45, and
you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and
your family.
What do you do?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Liberal's Answer:
Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
Does the man look poor? Or oppressed?
Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack?
Could we run away?
What does my wife think?
What about the kids?
Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of
his hand?
What does the law say about this situation?
Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it?
Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does
this send to society and to my children?
Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to
wound me?
If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while
he was stabbing me?
Should I call 9-1-1?
Why is this street so deserted?
We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this
happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior.
This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for
few days and try to come to a consensus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conservative's Answer:
BANG!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Montanan's Answer:
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!...........
(sounds of reloading).
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy!

Atomik
26-06--2006, 11:04 AM
Not innaction, but confusion and delay, muddying things that need to be dealt with clearly and quickly.Sorry, but that's bollocks. You're assuming some kind of wooly liberal stereotype, which is pretty far fucking removed from who I am.

Coyote
26-06--2006, 11:07 AM
Sorry, but that's bollocks. You're assuming some kind of wooly liberal stereotype, which is pretty far fucking removed from who I am.

I've known folks like that though...and had to pull their arses out of fire more than once.....

Atomik
26-06--2006, 11:33 AM
I've known folks like that though...and had to pull their arses out of fire more than once.....Sure, me too. But that would indicate that the problem lies with the people in question - not with the quality of compassion.

phil
26-06--2006, 12:00 PM
The main reason i would feel happy and rejoice in the death of somebody truely evil is mostly because it hardly ever happens. More often its a prison sentence no where near reflecting what should fit a henious crime. I think it would be more a feeling of. Great at fucking last, something eqaiting to justice.

shaggie
26-06--2006, 03:05 PM
It took about 3 years for that one and the bombing of who knows how many neighborhoods. So we'll be at war about 9000 more years to get the next few thousand.

Swirly
26-06--2006, 03:08 PM
The mark of a civilised society is that we feel compassion for people whether we feel they deserve it or not. Look at it this way..... if muslim fanatics felt compassion for people who they didn't believe deserved it, then they wouldn't be blowing up innocents, would they? See how spreading the compassion can help make the world a better place? A lust for vengeance never built a better world. Sure, we can't always show mercy to our enemies, but we don't have to reslish their pain and death. Compassion costs us nothing and makes the world a better place.

See to me there is a flaw here, just because YOU chose to show compassion, it doesnt mean others would be compassionate, some will abuse and take advantage of that.
If we show compassion to a killer, do you seriously think that will "spread" and he will learn compassion and not kill anymore ?

I agree, we dont have to revel in the death of a killer, but if they are killed I think some of us believe that is justice.

Atomik
26-06--2006, 03:14 PM
If we show compassion to a killer, do you seriously think that will "spread" and he will learn compassion and not kill anymore ?It's not as simple as that. If we give up on change because it doesn't happen immediately, then nothing will ever change. You can't create a compassionate world overnight - all you can do is lead by example, and build it slowly.


I agree, we dont have to revel in the death of a killer, but if they are killed I think some of us believe that is justice.I'm getting a little bored of repeating this point! I believe in justice too. Justice and compassion are not mutually exclusive concepts. I believe in justice administered with compassion. I believe in justice rather than revenge. I believe we can achieve jsutice without the need to revel in the suffering of those to who we administer it. I believe that as soon as we start to enjoy administering justice, we lessen ourselves. We should administer justice with regret, not with joy.

matthew
26-06--2006, 04:07 PM
You're entitled to your opinion and so am I, but one day it'll all come out, just ask Hugo Chavez and Willie Rodriguez, don't think it's fair you call me nuts if you don't have all the facts yourself, when, if, they ever are released then come back to me

Ok i'm sorry for being rude. I do seriously apologise for that.
I still think you are 'nuts' though... No i don't have all the facts, you do not need to. There has been enough evidence to the contary for a very long time. HC WR can say whatever they like, they like accuseing America of all sorts of things.

I don't think it adds up .. I think the strongest case that could be made is complicity . Even that is looking at this with hindsight.

The other thing was it was not just the US that was looking through this. Are you telling me 25 goverments who had access to the inteligence all failed to notice it was because America wanted to start something akin to 'Pearl harbour'. I think the Pearl harbour thing is, a major event that catapulted America into a situation. I don't think you will find many people who think Pearl harbour was orchestrated by the Americans themselves.

I'll happily look at anything you put in front of me though. Apart from it is from Alex Jones or has 'Rense' at the top of the page. ;)

Swirly
26-06--2006, 08:06 PM
I'm getting a little bored of repeating this point! I believe in justice too. Justice and compassion are not mutually exclusive concepts. I believe in justice administered with compassion. I believe in justice rather than revenge. I believe we can achieve jsutice without the need to revel in the suffering of those to who we administer it. I believe that as soon as we start to enjoy administering justice, we lessen ourselves. We should administer justice with regret, not with joy.

ok, so how would you deal with a killer ? what exactly do you see as being compassionate justice ? how do you justify this ? .. I am not trying to be argumentative but I simply dont understand your way of thinking.

As I said before I AGREE we shouldnt delight in the death of another human, BUT I dont agree that we should show unconditional compassion either. I agree we shouldnt enjoy dishing out justice, but justice needs to be enforced, and it needs to be firm, otherwise whats the point ?

There are consquences to actions, I believe we can understand without condoning, but we are humans, we are not all the same, and some will take advantage of whatever compassion is shown.

Coyote
26-06--2006, 08:23 PM
We should administer justice with regret, not with joy.

Personally, when I act in a manner I deem "administering justice" it is usually grief that motivates me; so joy is a long way from there. Regret though is perhaps a little too much world-doubting for my own tastes.....

Atomik
26-06--2006, 08:40 PM
ok, so how would you deal with a killer ? what exactly do you see as being compassionate justice ? how do you justify this ? .. I am not trying to be argumentative but I simply dont understand your way of thinking.

As I said before I AGREE we shouldnt delight in the death of another human, BUT I dont agree that we should show unconditional compassion either. I agree we shouldnt enjoy dishing out justice, but justice needs to be enforced, and it needs to be firm, otherwise whats the point ?

There are consquences to actions, I believe we can understand without condoning, but we are humans, we are not all the same, and some will take advantage of whatever compassion is shown.I think you're completely missing my point. You seem to think that compassion has to equate with "letting someone off" or treating someone liberally. That's not necessarily the case. Compassion is simply about your attitude to the task in hand.

Let's consider the killing of German soldiers during WWII. Most people would agree that this was necessary. But you would hope that people would feel sorrow at those deaths, necessary or not. That's the compassion for me - the caring about the fact that you're taking life, and the regret that it has to be done. I would extend that compassion to every life. I don't know what made any individual who and what they are. Even if they need killing, or imprisoning, or whatever punishment.... if it has to be done, it has to be donen. But I don't revel in it or take pleasure in it. I feel regret that such things are necessary, and regret at the kind of world that shapes people to become such twisted souls.

matthew
27-06--2006, 04:35 PM
Well whatever the sentences used to be or are now, they are still nowhere near harsh enough. So i'm all for campaigning to get them increased.

Sorry i missed this comment.

Imho 95% are ok. The ones that are not are the ones for child molestors and killers.
The ones looked at by part time judges, swamped with the pressure of court cases and the sentencing criteria...
Also i think it is about ''punish and rehabilitate''. Of course some will never be rehabilitated, the few highlighted in the press will probably never see the outside world for atleast twenty years [conveniantly they ignore that fact].
Would that be enough for you ?. How long should sentences be ?. If somebody has done a henous crime, but later completly changed there lives..should they be locked up for the remainder of there sentence ?.. or never given the opportunity to rehabilitate ?.
Personaly i'd lock child molestors up and throw away the key..for what ever reasons [prob' fair ones].. we don't do that unles s we really need to.

When you have families of victims wanting longer sentences..that is a powerful message. Huntley will probabaly get a fairly long sentence. Though even that will never be long enough for her family. Considerations for 'compassion' and 'forgiveness' seem a tad trite don't they ?.

Atomik
27-06--2006, 05:44 PM
When you have families of victims wanting longer sentences..that is a powerful message.Families of victims will always want longer sentences. It's the way of the world.


Considerations for 'compassion' and 'forgiveness' seem a tad trite don't they ?.And that comment seems a tad patronising and glib. I fail to see anything 'trite' about promoting a more compassionate world. And I dunno if some of the people in this thread are selectively deaf or just unable to grasp a really simple concept, but let me repeat myself.... compassion does not mean 'letting people off' or dishing out light sentences. It means punishing when necessary, and with a sense of regret. It means seeking justice and not revenge. What the fuck is so hard to grasp about that notion? I'd quite happily lock serial paedophiles away forever, but I wouldn't bay for their blood or enjoy their suffering. That's compassion.

Coyote
27-06--2006, 05:46 PM
It means seeking justice and not revenge.

What's the difference Dok, in your view?

Atomik
27-06--2006, 05:59 PM
What's the difference Dok, in your view?Justice is about seeking to reduce crime and stop people offending. It achieves something practical. Revenge is about seeking satisfaction in someone else's suffering. However much you justify revenge, it's just a vicious cycle that goes on forever.

Coyote
27-06--2006, 06:09 PM
Justice is about seeking to reduce crime and stop people offending. It achieves something practical. Revenge is about seeking satisfaction in someone else's suffering. However much you justify revenge, it's just a vicious cycle that goes on forever.

So revenge is about pride, or more accurately a bruised pride that you are seeking to restore? Thats a very "christian" perspective to decry it.....and christianity decryed pride because pride stands against an affront to us - its our self-esteme (not to be confused with Hubris, which is an excess of pride/arrogance) and our willingness not to submit.

Justice is quite "impersonal" (again very christian), placing the personal value in pride in a lower ranked place behind "the needs of society". Yes I realise this is very tempting to think of as love, but as numerous nannystatisms have shown, treating people in an impersonal way is no example of love.

What is needed is a blend of the two. Something which both restores pride whilst serving the need of the wider community.

This either/or dichotomy is not, in my view, healthy. It falls for the mistaken notion that something is either Hubris (and bad) or Impersonal Justice (and good), failing to understand the middleground between these two "othered" camps (it is usually convenient for the "justice" side to protray all pride as hubris....as that makes the walls easier to guard).

matthew
27-06--2006, 06:40 PM
Families of victims will always want longer sentences. It's the way of the world.

I know.. but that influences the rest of the judicial system.. or so some tabloids would wish [along with several families]. Thats a little bit wrong.


And that comment seems a tad patronising and glib. I fail to see anything 'trite' about promoting a more compassionate world.

It was not meant to be insulting towards your perspective. If [lets say]your 'promoting' that message towards families who have just suffered and would rather have the chap swing from the lap post. imho it would be a little trite don't you think.

We have to respect there POV as well as hopeing they respect ours. I was NOT makeing any snide comments towards your comments. intentionaly.
I don't agree completly with the way you think...but i can see where you are comeing from.. and have made NO comments regarding anything you have said, have i ?..

Some [not all] cases are just beyond my 'compassion'. I just can't have a all encompassing view about this for ALL people. That might make me a flawed person.. ?.


And I dunno if some of the people in this thread are selectively deaf or just unable to grasp a really simple concept, but let me repeat myself.... compassion does not mean 'letting people off' or dishing out light sentences. It means punishing when necessary, and with a sense of regret. It means seeking justice and not revenge.



What the fuck is so hard to grasp about that notion? I'd quite happily lock serial paedophiles away forever, but I wouldn't bay for their blood or enjoy their suffering. That's compassion


I'm not baying for any blood as far as they are concerned..

I don't know how i would feel if it was my kid who was molested.. but i doubt i would wish for the person to die or anything like that.
I don't think i would be regreting punishing the individual .
If the person honestly regreted what they had done.. i have enough compassion for forgiveness.. i would review the situation and my feelings at that time though.

I could have articulated myself slightly more calmly i suppose [in my initial post]. I was glad that he had been found and sort of glad he was 'out of the picture'.. I just don't shed many tears when certain individuals recieve karma.

As far as the subject of this thread.. I'm past giving a toss about that person. Thats just how i feel. Don't think it reflects my complete feelings about 'compassion'. It does not.

Atomik
27-06--2006, 06:43 PM
So revenge is about pride, or more accurately a bruised pride that you are seeking to restore?Or ego. Something along those line.


Thats a very "christian" perspective to decry it.....Not at all. It's basic psychology.


What is needed is a blend of the two. Something which both restores pride whilst serving the need of the wider community. Your sense of pride should come from within - not from a need to impose your will upon people who've done you wrong.

Atomik
27-06--2006, 06:47 PM
If [lets say]your 'promoting' that message towards families who have just suffered and would rather have the chap swing from the lap post. imho it would be a little trite don't you think.Well yeah. But so would pretty much any opinion you cared to venture under such circumstances. But then I don't think basing a judicial system on the feelings of those experiencing grief and loss is a particularly good idea - well, not unless you want a return to public executions.


We have to respect there POV as well as hopeing they respect ours.I respect their point of view - but I don't think that pain offers a particularly objective perspective.


Some [not all] cases are just beyond my 'compassion'. I just can't have a all encompassing view about this for ALL people. That might make me a flawed person.. ?.Well me too. I don't pretend to always practice what I preach - but it's an ideal that I always feel is worth working towards. And if I fall short of it, I don't try and justify it to myself. I try to avoid making the same mistake again.

Coyote
27-06--2006, 06:50 PM
Your sense of pride should come from within - not from a need to impose your will upon people who've done you wrong.

I live in a world, that I am part of, and which impacts upon me, so why should me sense of pride be purely internally derived?

Atomik
27-06--2006, 06:52 PM
I live in a world, that I am part of, and which impacts upon me, so why should me sense of pride be purely internally derived?Because it's more productive than relying on others for your feeling of self worth? Pride just fucks you up.