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out_of_my_tree
17-07--2006, 11:50 AM
A couple more soldiers have been kidnapped, rockets fired and air-strikes in return. It's all going to end in tears. So, is this going to be the catalyst that takes fighting up to the next level, or is it going to calm down a bit over the coming months? Is the possibility that Iran has been giving Hezbollah longer range rockets going to give the US more basis to barge in again? Will they ever bring back those chocolate covered pretzels that were soooo dam tasty?

koolaid
17-07--2006, 11:52 AM
Welcome to the the apocalypse!!! I hope everyone is seated comfortably....

Dapablo
17-07--2006, 11:04 PM
The Iranian linkage is going to be significant, plus the Syrians are implicated with there links to Hezbolah.

Could get very messy.

scarlett
17-07--2006, 11:07 PM
when has there ever been peace in the middle east?

velvet
18-07--2006, 08:42 AM
Well.. it's a hot summer and things sure seem to be very heated over there. As usual, indeed, but now the violence is pretty blatantly and openly. I'm not sure which side I'm on.. so many people seem to choose a side but.. man.. everyone just needs to chill ;)

Always sad to see how civilians die.. well and soldiers too.. everyone is so brainwashed over there is seems.. you should really just all shave'm bold, put'm in the same clothes, forbid them to talk and let'm do teamstuff.. it's not so much about the people as about their government installed ideologies..

Ah well.. seems like a frustrating and unsolvable problem... maybe just let'm fight it out.. not too sure how much use international intervention would be. We just have to stop all weapon deliveries and get ready with help for refugees on the borders or the countries that are in war.. but maybe if they have a good solid massacre about this it'll be solved once and for all. Problem is that talking has been tried and with international intervention it just seems like stalling really... I dunno.. just a hard topic.

koolaid
18-07--2006, 10:02 AM
but maybe if they have a good solid massacre about this it'll be solved once and for all.

You are joking right?????

velvet
18-07--2006, 10:18 AM
You are joking right?????

Partly. Yes I put it pretty bluntly... but I think throughout history you can see that just surpressing feelings of war doesn't exactly solve a situation. Look what happend to Yugoslavia when they got a bit more freedom.. all the old ethnical problems started all over again. Look at all the old colonies in Africa.. when most became independent in the sixties/seventies the violence started (other story though, didn't exactly help that the English, French and Dutch made borders right through tribal/etnical groups)...

What I'm trying to say is that when there is so much hatred and indifference you are not going to solve this by trying to influence them as an international community. The only true option we have as 'the rest of the world' is to either occupy them ourselves and keep them surpressed and/or seperated (which I don't really think is an option).. or to let'm sort it out themselves, but with having medical/educational help etc ready and with urging them to stay clear from civilians as much as possible.

It's kinda weird as well how people get all upset when a handfull of innocents in a Libanon or Israel get blown to pieces when there are atrocities going on all over the world on a daily basis. Why do we care so much about those countries and not about the rest? The media is all over the escalation.. but the findings of some scientists that prisoners in China are getting their organs removed for 'donation' without being killed or sedated first was hardly mentioned. Personally I'd rather be blown up by a suicide bomber or an Israeli missile than being operated on while being fully concious. Not to mention the situation of childsoldiers in Africa who are utterly and totally forgotten by most of the world (know a couple personally)..

Bottomline being: violence sucks.. in all cases.

Dapablo
19-07--2006, 09:56 PM
Well we could end up with peoples wishes being granted, i.e. a lot less human beings on the planet. :)

koolaid
20-07--2006, 08:28 PM
Look what happend to Yugoslavia when they got a bit more freedom.. all the old ethnical problems started all over again. Look at all the old colonies in Africa.. when most became independent in the sixties/seventies the violence started


Once again your joking yeah???? Surely you can't believe what you are saying here....

Are you a tory???

velvet
20-07--2006, 08:37 PM
Once again your joking yeah???? Surely you can't believe what you are saying here....

Are you a tory???

Instead of just saying stuff like this you might want to come up with some arguments of your own why you disagree with what I write? That would make a discussion a bit more.. well.. ehm.. possible ;)

jenni
20-07--2006, 09:15 PM
i dont understand....why are they trying to kill each other?...i mean....i get what the excuse is....partly....it all seems a bit jumbled really....im not sure there's any logic to it....hmmm....but yet again the world is watching instead of saying "enough"....not that we havent been doing that for like, a bazzilion years....and i get that there are some supposed reasons why no big scale stoppage is occuring....but still....why is everyone killing everyone else again?....im confused....:insane:

thats my way of expressing my sentiments through the power of rhetoric by the way, just to avoid misunderstanding....;)

out_of_my_tree
20-07--2006, 10:18 PM
Jenni- This is merely my take on the current goings on-3 irsraeli soldiers have been kidnapped. Instead of trying to find said soldiers and rescue them, Israel decided to bomb civillian areas until they get their soldiers back. Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Iraesli civilian areas in retaliation to this, possibly with baking from Iran+Syria. Resulting in a few hundred Lebanese innocents dead, and around 20 Israeli innocents. Israel has also conducted a fierce push into the Gaza strip (one soldier was taken by palestinians), resulting in over 100 more civilians being killed there.

Velvet- i agree in that there is atrocities happening all over the globe, and things must be done to stop these. But this particular conflict could have more serious effects in relation to the UK with more British troops being sent to the middle east in an escilating war that could (and in my opinion probably will) end up with somebody using nuclear weapons.(tactical or other). I'm guessing you can grasp the consequences of a possible nuclear attack on Israel or an Arab state.

velvet
20-07--2006, 10:25 PM
Velvet- i agree in that there is atrocities happening all over the globe, and things must be done to stop these. But this particular conflict could have more serious effects in relation to the UK with more British troops being sent to the middle east in an escilating war that could (and in my opinion probably will) end up with somebody using nuclear weapons.(tactical or other). I'm guessing you can grasp the consequences of a possible nuclear attack on Israel or an Arab state.

Yeah.. I totally agree on the fact that it has to stop one way or the other.. I'm just not too sure on which is the best approach really. The UK seems to be guided by the USA so much and with them bluntly backing up Israel on about everything I'm wondering how they can manage to restore some peace there.. just a very complicated and tough situation and as always the innocents are suffering.. *sigh*.. "tell me.. over and overand over again my friend.. oh you don't believe.. we're on the eve of destruction..."

out_of_my_tree
20-07--2006, 10:29 PM
[quote=velvet]I'm just not too sure on which is the best approach really. quote]


just start running in the opposite direction now, let the idiots in charge deal with the shit they've created and hope the fallout doesn't reach you...

if in doubt- DUCK AND COVER! :harhar:

Zonk
20-07--2006, 11:32 PM
Jenni- This is merely my take on the current goings on-3 irsraeli soldiers have been kidnapped. Instead of trying to find said soldiers and rescue them, Israel decided to bomb civillian areas until they get their soldiers back. Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Iraesli civilian areas in retaliation to this, possibly with baking from Iran+Syria. Resulting in a few hundred Lebanese innocents dead, and around 20 Israeli innocents. Israel has also conducted a fierce push into the Gaza strip (one soldier was taken by palestinians), resulting in over 100 more civilians being killed there.

Do you think Hezzbollox wouldn't slaughter hundreds of thousands of Israelis in one go if they had the ability to do it?

I'm astounded at the 'Lefts' rhetoric around this whole affair and that around Iraq. Ordinary people are being slaughtered on all sides by lunatics but our so called' left-wing' will stand up in support of biggotted right wing funda 'mentalist' women hating homophobic nut jobs. Pathetic.

velvet
20-07--2006, 11:59 PM
Do you think Hezzbollox wouldn't slaughter hundreds of thousands of Israelis in one go if they had the ability to do it?

I'm astounded at the 'Lefts' rhetoric around this whole affair and that around Iraq. Ordinary people are being slaughtered on all sides by lunatics but our so called' left-wing' will stand up in support of biggotted right wing funda 'mentalist' women hating homophobic nut jobs. Pathetic.

wow.. quite a bit of generalising going on here.. who are you talking about mate? Bit more specific perhaps?

Zonk
21-07--2006, 07:27 AM
wow.. quite a bit of generalising going on here.. who are you talking about mate? Bit more specific perhaps?
Really? There was me thinking I was being blunt and straight to the point....:whistle:

Ok I'll break it down a little....There are a series of STOP THE WAR COALITION marches being kicked off at the moment with slogans such as 'Israel Hands Of Lebanon' and ' END ISRAEL'S BARBARISM NOW'....I seem to have missed the 'Lebanon-Send Hezzbolah Packing' and 'Hezzbolah End Your Intent On Illiminating Jews' kind of slogan that should also be visible.

Fact is there wont be. As much of the so-called left are too busy sucking up and electioneering by looking for muslim votes and sharing platforms with tossers from groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir.

If people think the likes of Hezzbolah are freedom fighters then they are quite obviously living on another planet....

<But don't let the 'left' hear you say that...they'll accuse you of being racist...:rolleyes:>

velvet
21-07--2006, 11:53 AM
Really? There was me thinking I was being blunt and straight to the point....:whistle:

Ok I'll break it down a little....There are a series of STOP THE WAR COALITION marches being kicked off at the moment with slogans such as 'Israel Hands Of Lebanon' and ' END ISRAEL'S BARBARISM NOW'....I seem to have missed the 'Lebanon-Send Hezzbolah Packing' and 'Hezzbolah End Your Intent On Illiminating Jews' kind of slogan that should also be visible.

Fact is there wont be. As much of the so-called left are too busy sucking up and electioneering by looking for muslim votes and sharing platforms with tossers from groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir.

If people think the likes of Hezzbolah are freedom fighters then they are quite obviously living on another planet....

<But don't let the 'left' hear you say that...they'll accuse you of being racist...:rolleyes:>


Ahhh ok yeah I thought that was what you meant but I wanted to be sure, also cause the public opinion in the UK may differ from that in the Netherlands.. which it doesn't it seems.

Yup, I totally know what you mean. I think the worst thing you can do in this whole matter is to choose sides. The situation has gotten so thoroughly complicated that it isn't a simple 'they are bad and those are good' thing. That is also the problem with the whole left versus right labelling. When it comes to voting I'm pretty much as left as it gets here in the Netherlands, yet I've just been called a tory in this thread. If it was only possible to review each situation with a completely open mind instead of starting off in different camps already... *sigh*... in the end we all want peace right?

So yeah I get your point and please keep on being blunt.. if I don't quite get it I'll ask to elaborate if that's ok :)

out_of_my_tree
21-07--2006, 12:31 PM
Do you think Hezzbollox wouldn't slaughter hundreds of thousands of Israelis in one go if they had the ability to do it?
.

I agree, they would. However, they don't have the ability to do so (yet) and Israel, in retaliation to Hezbollah are killing hundreds of civilians. You expect the murder of innocent people from wankers such as Hezbollah, but you shouldn't expect it from a government that was voted for by the people of Israel. The Israeli army surely has the ability to target Hezbollah and get their kidnapped soldiers back without having around 80 airstrikes on heavily populated areas each day. Both sides are wrong, both sides are murderers and both sides need to be stopped.

out_of_my_tree
21-07--2006, 12:37 PM
I'm astounded at the 'Lefts' rhetoric around this whole affair and that around Iraq. Ordinary people are being slaughtered on all sides by lunatics but our so called' left-wing' will stand up in support of biggotted right wing funda 'mentalist' women hating homophobic nut jobs. Pathetic.


I also agree with you on this. The first thing i saw about this "crisis" was a post on "Indymedia Scotland", stating that there was a demo in Glasgow to oppose the Israeli killings in Lebanon and Gaza. I have repeatedly tried to get this changed, to highlight the killings of innocent Israelis aswell as arabs. But they didn't do it, which fucking disgusts me. If it goes against their own pathetic political agenda they will just ignore the facts that present themselves. You can always rely on the SSP\SWP for blatent hypocrital bullshit.

velvet
21-07--2006, 12:37 PM
Both sides are wrong, both sides are murderers and both sides need to be stopped.

and there we are with the hardest question of all again... : how?

How can we, as an international community, make sure this whole thing gets solved once and for all (so not just oppressing feelings or stalling the issue)? Israel finds itself supported by the US and I have the slight feeling that the Arab nations don't really give a shit what the rest of the world thinks of them .. so what are we as common folks to do? Our governments will hardly be able to talk some sense in to Israel to stop attacking let alone into the Hezbollah, Hamas or their political leaders. So do we need to intervene like in Iraq? Everything in me screams 'no' for that option. But then what? Go out on the streets with peacesigns shouting 'no war no war'?

I don't know.. I really don't. Once it's boiling it will end up cooked I'm afraid.. let's just hope we like the dish.

out_of_my_tree
21-07--2006, 12:53 PM
and there we are with the hardest question of all again... : how?



It would be good if my reply gave a fool proof answer to that question, and it worked all it's way from humble beginnings at UKhippy to actually bring peace in the Middle East. Sadly this post is not going to do that. It is a question that would stump the greatest of minds, let alone mine.
:(

This does not mean we give up and not think of possible solutions. It has to be out there somewhere, maybe we will get lucky and it will appear eventually.

velvet
21-07--2006, 12:56 PM
It would be good if my reply gave a fool proof answer to that question, and it worked all it's way from humble beginnings at UKhippy to actually bring peace in the Middle East. Sadly this post is not going to do that. It is a question that would stump the greatest of minds, let alone mine.
:(

This does not mean we give up and not think of possible solutions. It has to be out there somewhere, maybe we will get lucky and it will appear eventually.

Yeah.. maybe one step in the right direction is people stop taking sides and focussing on peace instead of who's right and who's wrong?

meh... *hug*..

Atomik
21-07--2006, 12:59 PM
Yeah.. maybe one step in the right direction is people stop taking sides and focussing on peace instead of who's right and who's wrong?

meh... *hug*..Precisely. Rights and wrongs don't ultimately matter - only solutions do.

velvet
21-07--2006, 01:16 PM
Precisely. Rights and wrongs don't ultimately matter - only solutions do.

Yup.. and that's the only right way of looking at it! :reddevil:

... hm wait ;)

koolaid
22-07--2006, 12:17 PM
Really? There was me thinking I was being blunt and straight to the point....:whistle:

Ok I'll break it down a little....There are a series of STOP THE WAR COALITION marches being kicked off at the moment with slogans such as 'Israel Hands Of Lebanon' and ' END ISRAEL'S BARBARISM NOW'....I seem to have missed the 'Lebanon-Send Hezzbolah Packing' and 'Hezzbolah End Your Intent On Illiminating Jews' kind of slogan that should also be visible.

Fact is there wont be. As much of the so-called left are too busy sucking up and electioneering by looking for muslim votes and sharing platforms with tossers from groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir.

If people think the likes of Hezzbolah are freedom fighters then they are quite obviously living on another planet....

<But don't let the 'left' hear you say that...they'll accuse you of being racist...:rolleyes:>


Israel are bombing innocent people...I think that's wrong....Therefore I am going to protest against it...Israel are not bombing Hezbollah, they are indiscriminately bombing civilians.....The words over and reaction go well here I think when describing israels response to their soldiers being taken......No one is supporting Hezbollah, no one is saying they are freedom fighters, all I am saying is those Lebanese people who were living their daily lives and now are being bombed deserve people to stand up and say this is wrong!

stuoolong
22-07--2006, 04:36 PM
Perhaps they all need some solution-focused therapy. "Now, imagine when you all go to bed at night and a miracle happens and you are are all friends when you wake up. What will you notice that's different?....."

Fighting has been going on in that region almost constantly since the days of the crusades, probably longer. I can't even begin to see a solution. A few strategically placed fresh water pipelines would probably help though...

Zonk
22-07--2006, 04:54 PM
Israel are bombing innocent people...I think that's wrong....Therefore I am going to protest against it...Israel are not bombing Hezbollah, they are indiscriminately bombing civilians.....The words over and reaction go well here I think when describing israels response to their soldiers being taken......No one is supporting Hezbollah, no one is saying they are freedom fighters, all I am saying is those Lebanese people who were living their daily lives and now are being bombed deserve people to stand up and say this is wrong!
Clearly your understanding of Hezbollox in Lebanese society is comparable with my ability to speak Chinese.

Ofcourse Israels actions are over the top....they always are, it's nothing new. Ofcourse it's fucking wrong!

Ofcourse innocents are dying. But until you demand an end to the killing on ALL sides and stop chanting crap like 'Support The Intifada!' which I've heard on practically every STWC march recently, by spotty little middle class prats, then you are a being a hypocrite in my opinion.

Yes plenty of people ARE supporting Hezbollah and calling them freedom fighters.

And I've heard enough crap about 'Hezbollah have only killed a few Israelis, the IDF have killed hundreds, it's just so unfair'.

A life is a life is a life....if you catch my drift irrespective who kills how many.

And people who are not in the SWP should stop marching alongside religious biggots, it's soooo uncool.:rolleyes:

koolaid
22-07--2006, 08:30 PM
Clearly your understanding of Hezbollox in Lebanese society is comparable with my ability to speak Chinese.

Ofcourse Israels actions are over the top....they always are, it's nothing new. Ofcourse it's fucking wrong!

Ofcourse innocents are dying. But until you demand an end to the killing on ALL sides and stop chanting crap like 'Support The Intifada!' which I've heard on practically every STWC march recently, by spotty little middle class prats, then you are a being a hypocrite in my opinion.

Yes plenty of people ARE supporting Hezbollah and calling them freedom fighters.

And I've heard enough crap about 'Hezbollah have only killed a few Israelis, the IDF have killed hundreds, it's just so unfair'.

A life is a life is a life....if you catch my drift irrespective who kills how many.

And people who are not in the SWP should stop marching alongside religious biggots, it's soooo uncool.:rolleyes:


Well...! I for one have never and probably never will shout 'Support The Intifada! Is quite a generalisation by yourself to assume that I have...and maybe people are calling Hezbollah freedom fighters..My point was that I am not....and I would consider myself to be on the left. I am not supporting Hezbollah or saying they are innocent...all I am saying is that what Israel are doing is wrong..Nothing more, nothing less..Anything else you have interpreted for yourself..

I am also taking it that your Chinese is pretty good then?? :whistle:

Count Casual
22-07--2006, 10:41 PM
I know a number of Israelis and the point that they make is that 'innocent' Israeli farmers have been subjected to rocket attacks from southern Lebanon for years and nobody seems able to do anything about it.
They consider that they are fighting for their existance so we shouldn't be surprised at the manner of their retaliation.

velvet
23-07--2006, 12:04 AM
Zonk.. yeah I know what you mean.. I joined this huge peace rally in Amsterdam a while ago against the Iraqi war.. was walking behind a truck with music and stuff and they started chanting 'intifada intifada' at one point.. some were carrying palestinian flags as well.. pissed me well off because that wasn't the reason I was there obviously. It's also the reason why I don't go to certain rallies cause I don't always want to be identified with the majority of the people who attend. My opinions are mostly very elaborate and nuanced.. going to a general anti-war protest is ok.. but going to an anti-Israel march.. no.. wouldn't do that.. because I don't believe in picking sides here. Sure I don't like Israel at the moment but neither do I like the rest of the countries involved.

My chinese ain't that good either btw ;)

Zonk
23-07--2006, 03:32 PM
Well...! I for one have never and probably never will shout 'Support The Intifada! Is quite a generalisation by yourself to assume that I have...and maybe people are calling Hezbollah freedom fighters..My point was that I am not....and I would consider myself to be on the left. I am not supporting Hezbollah or saying they are innocent...all I am saying is that what Israel are doing is wrong..Nothing more, nothing less..Anything else you have interpreted for yourself..

I am also taking it that your Chinese is pretty good then?? :whistle:
It wasn't a bloody general attack at yourself so whats with all the 'I this I that'?

I was talking about the so called fucking 'left' in general. Those Islamo Trots from the STWC/SWP/RESPECT who have a shared goal with Hezbollah/Hamas/Islamic Jihad etc.....the destruction of the fucking Israeli state.

Why are you one of them?

Is that why you're all defensive like?

koolaid
23-07--2006, 04:21 PM
The way it was written indicates personalisation, but if it was not meant that way then I retract my statements...

and No I don't support the destruction of Israel...That would be bad of me :)

and the "left" is a big generalisation...I'm sure Mr Blair believes he is a member of the "left"...and thats just fucking stupid!! I don't think most "lefties" want the destruction of Israel, just an acknowledgment and maybe an apology for stealing Palestinian land, and occupying it it...

I am not arguing Israels right to defend themselves...Just the fucking overkill they are using...Hell why not just nuke Lebanon problem sorted hey????

and not being defensive, is just the way my writing comes out sometimes...:)

phil
24-07--2006, 03:31 PM
Israel always has and always will retaliate in a big way. I lived there for a while and the general feeing i got was that they cant allow themselves to loose once or they cease to excist. All the surrounding countries can have a go then sink back and lick their wounds till next time. Thats the way the people i met justify themselves anyway. Its like dont fuck with us and we wont fuck with you. I know they're hardly whiter that white with the occupations etc but i do think they are always just hoping to be left alone.

velvet
24-07--2006, 03:46 PM
Israel always has and always will retaliate in a big way. I lived there for a while and the general feeing i got was that they cant allow themselves to loose once or they cease to excist. All the surrounding countries can have a go then sink back and lick their wounds till next time. Thats the way the people i met justify themselves anyway. Its like dont fuck with us and we wont fuck with you. I know they're hardly whiter that white with the occupations etc but i do think they are always just hoping to be left alone.

But if that's the case why don't they just agree with some border compromise and leave it at that? If a country truely wants to be left alone you'd say they'd be willing to do some concessions?

Zonk
24-07--2006, 04:31 PM
But if that's the case why don't they just agree with some border compromise and leave it at that? If a country truely wants to be left alone you'd say they'd be willing to do some concessions?
Mmmm, seems to me that Israelis and Palestinians have been trying for years to move forward.

Then some jumped up biggots, be they Islamic or Jewish do something wanky like massacre a load of people.:rolleyes:

I think the answer is in how much some people want.....

Hamas and Hezbollah are not interested in simply having a Palestinian homeland are they....they want Israel gone for good with every Jew inhaling the Mediteranian Sea on their way out.

velvet
24-07--2006, 06:23 PM
Mmmm, seems to me that Israelis and Palestinians have been trying for years to move forward.

Then some jumped up biggots, be they Islamic or Jewish do something wanky like massacre a load of people.:rolleyes:

I think the answer is in how much some people want.....

Hamas and Hezbollah are not interested in simply having a Palestinian homeland are they....they want Israel gone for good with every Jew inhaling the Mediteranian Sea on their way out.

next time we're gonna give a bunch of people a plot of land out of sheer guilt we should really consider the option of an island.. without any original inhabitants. Hey.. the Dutch are pretty good in making land out of nothing.. just pile up dirt in the sea.. maybe we can relocate Israel to some big manmade island somewhere..

Atomik
24-07--2006, 06:43 PM
next time we're gonna give a bunch of people a plot of land out of sheer guilt we should really consider the option of an island.. without any original inhabitants. Hey.. the Dutch are pretty good in making land out of nothing.. just pile up dirt in the sea.. maybe we can relocate Israel to some big manmade island somewhere..That's what it comes down to. Partitioning doesn't work. Every time the West has tried to artificially re-draw national boundaries, we've fucked it up. Unfortunately, rolling back the clock isn't so easy.

Zonk
24-07--2006, 07:50 PM
I hear there were placards with "We're All Hezbollah" on them and DVD's intitled 'Holohoax' openly on sale at Saturdays London demo. Very classy.:rolleyes:

That and George Galloways new beard...

velvet
24-07--2006, 08:00 PM
I hear there were placards with "We're All Hezbollah" on them and DVD's intitled 'Holohoax' openly on sale at Saturdays London demo. Very classy.:rolleyes:

That and George Galloways new beard...

sheesh.. way to make peace.

Can I go on record here that I don't like people who just take an opinion because it's 'the thing to do'? Like the whole 'antifada' thing you mentioned, but also the billions of people with 'save tibet' on their cars, bikes etc with hardly any knowledge of the historical background, current situation etc etc.. argh.. what ever happend to educating yourself and forming a nuanced opinion?

koolaid
25-07--2006, 10:01 AM
but also the billions of people with 'save tibet' on their cars, bikes etc with hardly any knowledge of the historical background, current situation etc etc.. argh..

Isn't it free Tibet??? ......


and is that such a bad thing..what if one person see's that sticker and thinks.."hmmm I wonder what Tibet needs to be freed from", then they go and look it up and make a difference.....

It just seems to me we are always criticising people, who are trying to help, for not being left enough, or for not knowing the whole story.....Surely a sticker on a car is better than nothing at all?? As for it being the thing to do, surely trying to free a country from a hostile regime that has invaded should be everyone's thing to do??

velvet
25-07--2006, 10:39 AM
Isn't it free Tibet??? ......


and is that such a bad thing..what if one person see's that sticker and thinks.."hmmm I wonder what Tibet needs to be freed from", then they go and look it up and make a difference.....

It just seems to me we are always criticising people, who are trying to help, for not being left enough, or for not knowing the whole story.....Surely a sticker on a car is better than nothing at all?? As for it being the thing to do, surely trying to free a country from a hostile regime that has invaded should be everyone's thing to do??

Yeah Free Tibet.. whatever. My point is that such things seem to be more of a hype than an actual political statement. It's like people calling themselves vegetarian cause they don't eat red meat (but do eat chicken).. I dunno.. but like I said before.. it's just my opinion, everyone is entitled to do whatever he pleases..

When it comes to Tibet, that's a whole different topic, worthy of it's own thread. Ofcourse I'm opposed to invasions.. but since this is a pretty delicate and elaborate subject I just refrain from going around yelling "free tibet, free tibet". Just my personal view.

koolaid
25-07--2006, 12:06 PM
When it comes to Tibet, that's a whole different topic, worthy of it's own thread. Ofcourse I'm opposed to invasions.. but since this is a pretty delicate and elaborate subject I just refrain from going around yelling "free tibet, free tibet". Just my personal view.

Pretty delicate situation.??..China stole a country, banned them from flying their own flag, changed their whole way of life, built a big fucking railway across it, made their spiritual leader flee for his life and still have to live in exile...in what way is that a delicate situation???

Sorry but I am gonna fucking stand on the rooftops and shout "free Tibet, free Tibet" as fucking loud as I can (metaphorically speaking of course) until Tibet is free...Just my personal view of course..

phil
25-07--2006, 02:17 PM
I'm sure stickers like that are only to raise awareness. The wording as an instruction makes me laugh a bit really. Its like i see a sticker and its Oi you, free tibet! And i think ok then fuck it i hereby free tibet. It also reminds me of harry enfields loadsa money saying he thought that nelson mandela was a drink and free nelson mandela was a free one. It was on the stage at the free N.M. concert. Sorry to be flippent but the sun's shining :)

velvet
25-07--2006, 02:49 PM
Pretty delicate situation.??..China stole a country, banned them from flying their own flag, changed their whole way of life, built a big fucking railway across it, made their spiritual leader flee for his life and still have to live in exile...in what way is that a delicate situation???

Oh.. and why is it delicate? Well.. if you'd read up on it a bit.. China doesn't feel like it has invaded an autonomous country, it feels like it's been reclaiming what has been a part of China throughout history. The fact that the rest of the world has a different view of history doesn't bother them too much and since China isn't exactly the country to bother about outsiders opinions the only way to get some result is probably a full blown invasion where we liberate Tibet.. or hey.. maybe we can stop buying products made in China?


Sorry but I am gonna fucking stand on the rooftops and shout "free Tibet, free Tibet" as fucking loud as I can (metaphorically speaking of course) until Tibet is free...Just my personal view of course..

hey while you're up there shouting on the roof (metaphorically speaking ofcourse) don't forget to mention the situation in Iraq, childabuse, sexism, terrorism, dictatorship, censorship and torture... and that's just for today ofcourse! Tomorrow there you can spice it up with Guantanamo, animal cruelty and racism.. just so it doesn't get boring :D You'll never know which powerful person might hear you and solve everything in one poof! :insane:

Btw I saw a 'Save Tibet' sticker today... heehee..

velvet
25-07--2006, 02:53 PM
I'm sure stickers like that are only to raise awareness. The wording as an instruction makes me laugh a bit really. Its like i see a sticker and its Oi you, free tibet! And i think ok then fuck it i hereby free tibet. It also reminds me of harry enfields loadsa money saying he thought that nelson mandela was a drink and free nelson mandela was a free one. It was on the stage at the free N.M. concert. Sorry to be flippent but the sun's shining :)

Yup I hear ya :) And sure I often take sides in discussions even though I'm not fully educated on the subject.. or play the devil's advocate.. hell I have a che poster on my door even though I wasn't a close friend to Ernesto! ;) Kinda ironic that really, since he never wanted to become an icon as far as I know.. ah well..

And yeah.. yeay for the sun! :sunsmile: Enjoy the weather!

koolaid
25-07--2006, 03:31 PM
hey while you're up there shouting on the roof (metaphorically speaking ofcourse) don't forget to mention the situation in Iraq, childabuse, sexism, terrorism, dictatorship, censorship and torture... and that's just for today ofcourse! Tomorrow there you can spice it up with Guantanamo, animal cruelty and racism.. just so it doesn't get boring :D You'll never know which powerful person might hear you and solve everything in one poof! :insane:

So what are you saying??? Don't protest unless you are going to mention every single thing that is wrong with the world...I also think that those things you listed are wrong and yes metaphorically speaking I am also shouting that....and you know what if a million other things come along tomorrow and the next day and the next day after that..I will stand up and tell people and say it is wrong from my metaphorical rooftop...

And bollocks to this one powerful person hearing me, how fucking condescending a statement is that!!!...If one fucking person I tell realises that what is happening is wrong then every single second of it will have been worthwhile...

koolaid
25-07--2006, 03:34 PM
Oh.. and why is it delicate? Well.. if you'd read up on it a bit.. China doesn't feel like it has invaded an autonomous country, it feels like it's been reclaiming what has been a part of China throughout history. The fact that the rest of the world has a different view of history doesn't bother them too much and since China isn't exactly the country to bother about outsiders opinions the only way to get some result is probably a full blown invasion where we liberate Tibet.. or hey.. maybe we can stop buying products made in China?..

See now that doesn't strike me as a delicate situation...that strikes me as China being a bunch of fucking cunts! and China can go shove it up their fucking asses!!! and btw I don't buy chinese goods if I can help it..

and please don't tell me the fuck to read up on stuff, I am not a child and do look into things before making opinions on them...!!

velvet
25-07--2006, 03:56 PM
ooowwkay.. ya know what?

I'm gonna leave this thread for a while before we get our own Israel - Hamas/Hezbollah drama going on here. The vibe is becoming quite nasty, I can only take so much 'fuck' and exclamation/questionmarks in one go. Plus, not to mention, we're going a bit offtopic here.

Zonk
25-07--2006, 03:59 PM
See now that doesn't strike me as a delicate situation...that strikes me as China being a bunch of fucking cunts! and China can go shove it up their fucking asses!!! and btw I don't buy chinese goods if I can help it..

and please don't tell me the fuck to read up on stuff, I am not a child and do look into things before making opinions on them...!!
How did the 'Tibetan Myth' end up on this thread?

Bythe way....

FREE TIBET-FROM MONKS!

Torturing and mutilating fucking twats.

and to requote myself from a previious thread on this forum

in a previous lifetime that is..... oooohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!



While I have very little or no respect for the Chinese state, neither do I for the socio/political/historical inaccuracies that get bandered about.

What did China ever do for Tibet?

The abolition of a penal code that prescribed mutilations, amputations and public floggings, electricity and roads etc. An education system for all as opposed to one controlled by the monastries based on class.

Yeah many Tibetans do want a return of the Dalai Lama but they have no wish to return to their feudal past. The nobility in exile however naturally have a very different agenda.

koolaid
25-07--2006, 04:13 PM
Now Tibet are the bad guys....

I give up! it just aint worth it....

Zonk
25-07--2006, 04:21 PM
Now Tibet are the bad guys....

I give up! it just aint worth it....

That might not be a bad thing...



It just seems to me we are always criticising people, who are trying to help, for not being left enough, or for not knowing the whole story.....Surely a sticker on a car is better than nothing at all?? As for it being the thing to do, surely trying to free a country from a hostile regime that has invaded should be everyone's thing to do??

The point is there is a little more to it than that isn't there....

Hezbolah are as big a bunch of tosspots as the IDF, and would quite likely be worse if they had the means.

But if you are happy to march along side fundementalist nutters thats entirely up to you.

Our enemies enemy is our friend? My arse!

I wonder if people can spot the irony in practically each of these pictures?
http://www.urban75.org/photos/protest/lebanon-london-2006.html

It's about time the left and the peace movement in this country woke up to their hypocrasy...

Atomik
25-07--2006, 04:23 PM
Our enemies enemy is our friend? My arse!Yeah. Just look at class war! :harhar:

Zonk
25-07--2006, 04:24 PM
Yeah. Just look at class war! :harhar:

Satan!:reddevil:

Atomik
25-07--2006, 04:26 PM
Satan!:reddevil:Why thank you! :D

scarlett
25-07--2006, 04:27 PM
I couldn't have said it better zonk:) i find all this killing in the name of 'god' repugnant:vomit:

and on Tibet...who did the monks maim and kill to get the powerbase there ?...anyone care to remember ? ;)

Dapablo
25-07--2006, 06:43 PM
Thought Palestine was free-ish till they decided to start another war, I mean kidnapping soldiers, "ooh I wonder what will happen".

Don't do marches, too much jingoistic nonsense, and they've turned into fashion accessories.

koolaid
26-07--2006, 12:57 PM
But if you are happy to march along side fundementalist nutters thats entirely up to you....

Who said I did that then????

All I have ever said is killing innocent civilians is wrong

but obviously you disagree with me thinking that....

Zonk
26-07--2006, 03:47 PM
Who said I did that then????

All I have ever said is killing innocent civilians is wrong

but obviously you disagree with me thinking that....

And there it is......if I'm opposed to attending SWP sponsored anti Israel marches because they ally themselves with biggots and fundementalists, and I point out the lunacy of people who do, and then call themselves peacecampaigners, I must be all for the killing of innocent people!!!!!!

Come on don't stop there....

Shout 'Fascist!' in good old swappie fashion!

I don't know if you are a card carrying Swappie, if not I'm sure they'll have you in a flash. ;)


I'm probably being a bit hard on you.....yes, it's quite likely you really don't know who you are marching hand in hand with most of the time.

A BLOODY SIN IN ITSELF!!!!!!!

WAKEY BLOODY WAKEY!!!!!!!

:whack:

Zonk
26-07--2006, 04:50 PM
It just seems to me we are always criticising people...... for not knowing the whole story.....

Yes well it's good to altleast try and get a general picture of whats going on and who everybody is

....otherwise you might end up with fertilizer strapped to your back or handing out BNP leaflets whilst wearing leiderhosen and jackboots

....or filling George Galloways saucer of milk.

;)