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Atomik
08-08--2006, 09:56 AM
Sigh.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1839522,00.html

Ryan Lenz, Associated Press in Baghdad
Tuesday August 8, 2006
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/)

US soldiers, accused of raping and murdering a 14-year-old Iraqi girl, drank alcohol and hit golf balls before the attack. One of them grilled chicken wings afterwards, a criminal investigator told a US military hearing yesterday.Benjamin Bierce interviewed one of the accused, Specialist James Barker who made a written statement in which he recorded graphic and brutal sexual details of the alleged assault on March 12.

velvet
08-08--2006, 10:03 AM
I like my boyfriends thoughts on police and military personel. Sure.. with them being lawenforcers and uniformwearers they are 'above' the general public.. able to carry arms and use them... and their power should be even enforced.. BUT.. only when they step aside from their civil rights. Which means that if they cross a line (like rape, steal, fraud etc) they should get way more severe punishment. They should also not just live at home and have romantic/friendship ties with society but live seperated.

This can be done by signing up for this for a certain amount of years. After that you loose all authority and return back to society with normal civil rights. During the last year of your service you'll be educated enough to immediately get a job as for instance a teacher or a technician in the civilian industry.

Personally.. I like that idea. Give people with authority less rights.. that'll teach them that they are NOT above the law but in it's service.

Bodhisurfer
08-08--2006, 10:59 AM
Sigh.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1839522,00.html


Please dont get me wrong on this one dudes but those soldiers are victims too

Often recriuted from poor neighbourhoods with little other employment opportunities, in my view many of them little more than children themselves. It can never be right but its hardly suprizing when these acts of extreme violence occur.
The military is not a great place for reflection and personal growth and in a strange way i beleive that these guys (on all sides) are being abused and certainly exploited.
Of course any act of violence will have an immediate negative effect on its victim but have a little think about what those guys have in store for themselves bearing in mind that theyre probably not much more than 19 or 20 now
Spread the love dudes -please!!!!:)

Atomik
08-08--2006, 11:02 AM
Sure, everyone's a victim, but we all have to take some degree of responsibility for our actions. Especially when those actions are murder and rape.

littlesausage
08-08--2006, 11:04 AM
F**KING HELL, F*CK, F*CK What the hell are they all playing at? That is f*cking sick!

Ms. Vee
08-08--2006, 11:05 AM
Of course any act of violence will have an immediate negative effect on its victim but have a little think about what those guys have in store for themselves bearing in mind that theyre probably not much more than 19 or 20 now

The 14 year old girl who was raped and saw her family being killed will not just have an "immediate negative effect" and then forget all about it. Rape haunts people for the rest of their lives. I hear where you are coming from - as many of the US soldiers are messed-up young men from poor and abusive backgrounds, but it is very difficult to be compassionate when they completely destroy lives. And, seemingly, take extreme pleasure in it.

I try to be a compassionate person, but I have VERY LITTLE time for rapists.

littlesausage
08-08--2006, 11:05 AM
Im sorry for the madness above, but its awful and I just had to type rant ... but what the hell? honestly? How can they get away with doing stuff like this? Are their mental states not checked before they are sent off to fight? or create peace as they like to call it.

Atomik
08-08--2006, 11:08 AM
but it is very difficult to be compassionate when they completely destroy lives.Oh, I dunno. I can feel compassion for them.... it just doesn't excuse or condone their behaviour. It's like a rabid dog... you can feel sorry for it, but it still needs putting down.

Zonk
08-08--2006, 11:22 AM
Part of the process of war is to de-humanise the people you are at war with. The days of the 'Knights of the Round Table' etc are I fear a myth.

Whilst it serves a purpose to bring to trial the odd couple of soldiers for their conduct, let's not lose sight of one fact.... soldiers are the states boot boys to sew fear and reap destruction.

If society feels it necessary to have an army, they shouldn't be so naieve as to think they arent going to treat the opposition like shite...

Terribly sad but terribly true.

Bodhisurfer
08-08--2006, 11:25 AM
Sure, everyone's a victim, but we all have to take some degree of responsibility for our actions. Especially when those actions are murder and rape.

Absolutely agree with you there bro:) and, maybe, those guys will get found guilty of what they did to that poor girl and be punished in some way. Whatever was happening to them does not legitimize what they themselves went on to do.

I guess my point is we all have to take some responsibility for their actions too.

And we do, people. Taking responsibility is not just "yeah sorry mate. It was me." Taking responsibility is communicating, reflecting, challenging etc etc and i think that there are plenty of people on here doing that:cool:

Bodhisurfer
08-08--2006, 11:36 AM
The 14 year old girl who was raped and saw her family being killed will not just have an "immediate negative effect" and then forget all about it. Rape haunts people for the rest of their lives. I hear where you are coming from - as many of the US soldiers are messed-up young men from poor and abusive backgrounds, but it is very difficult to be compassionate when they completely destroy lives. And, seemingly, take extreme pleasure in it.

I try to be a compassionate person, but I have VERY LITTLE time for rapists.

No I quite agree. I didnt mean to suggest that the girls sufferings are "less" somehow. And i can see that you are obviously a compassionate person from this and the other postings of yours that I have read but someone, maybe not you, does have to have time for these young men and their like -if only to stop them doing it again or messing with folk when they get back home to their "poor and abusive backgrounds"

think this threads moving along faster than i can keep up...;)

littlesausage
08-08--2006, 11:42 AM
No I quite agree. I didnt mean to suggest that the girls sufferings are "less" somehow. And i can see that you are obviously a compassionate person from this and the other postings of yours that I have read but someone, maybe not you, does have to have time for these young men and their like -if only to stop them doing it again or messing with folk when they get back home to their "poor and abusive backgrounds"

think this threads moving along faster than i can keep up...;)

I think these peoples lives are being taken .. lightly ... if it was happening in this country there would be outcry .. there would be newspaper headlines dedicated and then Blair would get on his high horse and cause soem kind of havoc/chaos to who dun it ... just to restore his ego ... then they would retaliate and then more ego restoring ... and hey PRESTO ... A WAR!!! :rock: (sorry for confronation doc but ...)

matthew
08-08--2006, 04:06 PM
It is sad.. even with those involved, prosecuted ... 'we' will still be hated by the Iraqi people.
Well not all the Iraqi people, some can see past there noses.
These kinds of incidents happen within every conflict..it is just the way it is.
I think these soldiers would have contemplated these kinds of acts regardless of if they were in the army. Thank im' upstairs these things are exremely exremely rare.. the propaganda value is well ???? any ones guess.

velvet
08-08--2006, 04:22 PM
I think these peoples lives are being taken .. lightly ... if it was happening in this country there would be outcry .. there would be newspaper headlines dedicated and then Blair would get on his high horse and cause soem kind of havoc/chaos to who dun it ... just to restore his ego ... then they would retaliate and then more ego restoring ... and hey PRESTO ... A WAR!!! :rock: (sorry for confronation doc but ...)

Even though I feel sorry for the 14 y/o raped girl I agree with some of the above posters that there is more to it than just that. I agree with your post, to some extent, but don't forget that everywhere in the world outrages things happen and I'll bet a whole lot that also British and Dutch people are involved in that. Especially in war(like) situations I can fully imagine that young males get up in their primal, peerpressured urges due to constant stress, fear etc.

I've got a few prisonpenpals.. they are in for murder.. but at least two of them I can vouch for that they are as well the victim as they are the killer.

Humans are easily influenced.. we're easily pushed off balance I guess.

To be clear.. people should be punished, philosophically speaking punishment is an acknowledgement of their existence and autonomy even and therefor almost a 'right'.. however, the punishment should serve a purpose and in a civilised society vengeance isn't a pretty reason for punishment.

Zim
09-08--2006, 09:43 AM
Rape and murder are sadly a fact of war.

We seem to forget that when the allies liberated poland and auchwitz etc they raped and pillaged along the way. These act are forgotten in the annals of history (barring of course the people affected) because they were supposed to be doing a "good thing".

I am by no means condoning thier actions, far from it. I am just saying that this shit happens all the time in war and to act surprised when it does happen is sheer naievity.


I like my boyfriends thoughts on police and military personel. Sure.. with them being lawenforcers and uniformwearers they are 'above' the general public.. able to carry arms and use them... and their power should be even enforced.. BUT.. only when they step aside from their civil rights. Which means that if they cross a line (like rape, steal, fraud etc) they should get way more severe punishment. They should also not just live at home and have romantic/friendship ties with society but live seperated.

This can be done by signing up for this for a certain amount of years. After that you loose all authority and return back to society with normal civil rights. During the last year of your service you'll be educated enough to immediately get a job as for instance a teacher or a technician in the civilian industry.

Personally.. I like that idea. Give people with authority less rights.. that'll teach them that they are NOT above the law but in it's service.

i do agree with the harsher sentances of soliders but i feel that keeping them seperate from society will have negative phycological effects. It could also dehumanise everyone else leading to more tragedys like this

Bee Sew Glad
09-08--2006, 09:51 AM
[quote=Zim]Rape and murder are sadly a fact of war.


Well then South Africa must be at war 24/7 :(Its really sad!

I think these soldiers get pushed to their ultimate limits in Iraq and some who have not got a strong character or faith break and these actions are a result of this...They should be punished though just the same..:mad:.im sure there are many who have wives and children back at home...:(

Zim
09-08--2006, 10:01 AM
im sure there are many who have wives and children back at home...:(
does the fact that somone has a wife and child make this crime any less severe?

in fact if the guy has a child surely raping a 14 year old is a pretty good indication that he isn't an exceptionally good father

littlesausage
09-08--2006, 10:25 AM
Even though I feel sorry for the 14 y/o raped girl I agree with some of the above posters that there is more to it than just that. I agree with your post, to some extent, but don't forget that everywhere in the world outrages things happen and I'll bet a whole lot that also British and Dutch people are involved in that. Especially in war(like) situations I can fully imagine that young males get up in their primal, peerpressured urges due to constant stress, fear etc.

I've got a few prisonpenpals.. they are in for murder.. but at least two of them I can vouch for that they are as well the victim as they are the killer.

Humans are easily influenced.. we're easily pushed off balance I guess.

To be clear.. people should be punished, philosophically speaking punishment is an acknowledgement of their existence and autonomy even and therefor almost a 'right'.. however, the punishment should serve a purpose and in a civilised society vengeance isn't a pretty reason for punishment.

Yeah theyve gone to jail, theyre receiving their punishment but it still doesnt change the fact that the family was brutally murdered and suffered severly before they died ... it shouldnt just be accepted that it happens everywhere, this is why there is a knife amnesty at the moment .. because people are not just accepting it ... if it happened to one of your relatives would you still just accept it as the way the world works?

Lotsa love xxx

Bee Sew Glad
09-08--2006, 10:33 AM
Those who have wives and children back at home should know better...they should be more compasionate to thier victims and NOT rape and abuse them...but do their militry duties as expected...if i lived in the 60s id be the hippy burning the flags...War is NOT an answer ...its a conspiracy theory to whats to come....

Bee Sew Glad
09-08--2006, 10:35 AM
does the fact that somone has a wife and child make this crime any less severe? NO

in fact if the guy has a child surely raping a 14 year old is a pretty good indication that he isn't an exceptionally good father

I FULLY agree.

velvet
09-08--2006, 10:35 AM
Yeah theyve gone to jail, theyre receiving their punishment but it still doesnt change the fact that the family was brutally murdered and suffered severly before they died ... it shouldnt just be accepted that it happens everywhere, this is why there is a knife amnesty at the moment .. because people are not just accepting it ... if it happened to one of your relatives would you still just accept it as the way the world works?

Lotsa love xxx

well what do you suggest to do with rapist and murderers then?

And by the way.. there is an organisation of parents of murdered children who are opposing the deathpenalty in the US..

and in the case of my penpals.. for their victims it was an 'if you play with fire you'll get hurt' kinda thing.. the world isn't as fuzzy and lovely as you might think, a lot of big cities have no-go areas.. hell even here in Amsterdam there are places I'd rather not be at night. If you add some serious gangwars at that you can be sure people get hurt along the line.

Zim
09-08--2006, 10:37 AM
well what do you suggest to do with rapist and murderers then?

And by the way.. there is an organisation of parents of murdered children who are opposing the deathpenalty in the US..

and in the case of my penpals.. for their victims it was an 'if you play with fire you'll get hurt' kinda thing.. the world isn't as fuzzy and lovely as you might think, a lot of big cities have no-go areas.. hell even here in Amsterdam there are places I'd rather not be at night. If you add some serious gangwars at that you can be sure people get hurt along the line.
:ditto:


the problem is that theres too many damn people in the world so there will always be opposition to anything that happens anywhere ever

littlesausage
09-08--2006, 10:41 AM
well what do you suggest to do with rapist and murderers then?

And by the way.. there is an organisation of parents of murdered children who are opposing the deathpenalty in the US..

and in the case of my penpals.. for their victims it was an 'if you play with fire you'll get hurt' kinda thing.. the world isn't as fuzzy and lovely as you might think, a lot of big cities have no-go areas.. hell even here in Amsterdam there are places I'd rather not be at night. If you add some serious gangwars at that you can be sure people get hurt along the line.

I DO NOT think the world is fuzzy, quite the opposite .. Im trying to say that no matter how 'unfuzzy' the world is ... violence should NOT be acceoted and fought to the very end .. no1 is above anybody in this world .. anyone who thinks they are needs to be bought down .. Im not a politician or a copper or anything else in the world of law so I dont have the magical answer .. but what I do have is a very strong belief that we can make things better and negativity will NOT change that.

Ever

velvet
09-08--2006, 10:46 AM
I DO NOT think the world is fuzzy, quite the opposite .. Im trying to say that no matter how 'unfuzzy' the world is ... violence should NOT be acceoted and fought to the very end .. no1 is above anybody in this world .. anyone who thinks they are needs to be bought down .. Im not a politician or a copper or anything else in the world of law so I dont have the magical answer .. but what I do have is a very strong belief that we can make things better and negativity will NOT change that.

Ever

yes... and like I asked before... how do you suggest to treat rapists and murderers then? I think everyone will agree with you that violence has to stop.. it's the 'how' people aren't agreeing about.. so what's your idea?

Paul
09-08--2006, 10:53 AM
when the allies liberated poland and auchwitz etc they raped and pillaged along the way. Did they? Have you got a reference as I didn't know this?

Zim
09-08--2006, 10:55 AM
Did they? Have you got a reference as I didn't know this?
not to hand.

twas somthing i picked up in school

Confuscari
09-08--2006, 11:00 AM
not to hand.

twas somthing i picked up in school

Along with "You must do what authority says, not have your hair longer than 5 inches, wear a uniform and refrain from any free though whatsoever unless its part of the curriculum"

;) :p

Atomik
09-08--2006, 11:02 AM
Along with "You must do what authority says, not have your hair longer than 5 inches, wear a uniform and refrain from any free though whatsoever unless its part of the curriculum".... and crabs. :whistle:

Zim
09-08--2006, 11:05 AM
Along with "You must do what authority says, not have your hair longer than 5 inches, wear a uniform and refrain from any free though whatsoever unless its part of the curriculum"

;) :p

yeah, but by the time they got round to trying to teach me that i had shoulderlength dreadies and "PCP Saved My Life" written on my tie in tip-ex

littlesausage
09-08--2006, 02:11 PM
.... and crabs. :whistle:

Look what youve started!! xxx

littlesausage
09-08--2006, 02:13 PM
yes... and like I asked before... how do you suggest to treat rapists and murderers then? I think everyone will agree with you that violence has to stop.. it's the 'how' people aren't agreeing about.. so what's your idea?

I'll tell you what .. Ill go away and have a think about this. I dont want to say something in the heat of debate ... maybe thats a possible answer ... thinking before actions ...

I'll get back to you on this ... but one question .. why do you ask me this? do u expect me to do something?

Zim
09-08--2006, 02:16 PM
hey folks chill, its just a debate.

thinking before an action is always the way to go, but in the heat of war (as in a heated debate) things can be forgotten in the haste.

velvet
09-08--2006, 02:29 PM
I'll tell you what .. Ill go away and have a think about this. I dont want to say something in the heat of debate ... maybe thats a possible answer ... thinking before actions ...

I'll get back to you on this ... but one question .. why do you ask me this? do u expect me to do something?

No.. just a general question.. you came across pretty strong in your opinion on how they are dealing with it now.. and I was wondering if you had something else in mind. Wasn't trying to be offensive or anything..