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Coyote
18-09--2006, 05:54 PM
NOTE: If you start reading this thread its your own damn fault as I dont make the points as clear as I could in a single "paper"....so any resultant insanity is your own fault :harhar:



Heylo mooky :)


if one of these were to personally cause you suffering although there was a solution to ending this, would you let it happen simply because this person 'was part of the world too'?
Hmmmm I am more than happy to restrain people from doing seriously bad things to me...but I have yet to see a general solution proposed that was no just another form of meddlesomeness in another mask....and in fact, I hold to the basic notion that all broadtarget "fixing", "making people 'better'" is ALWAYS a means of just a different form of fascism :(


does that constitute justification for accepting that these 'evil' individuals not respect others?

and if you will say that you are only concerned with your own well-being... well i guess that is a personal choice, one that makes me sad, but yours to make i suppose :(
I am first and foremost concerned with me and mine....beyond that I dont really worry about fascism/authoritarianism in the world except where it approaches "apocalyptic" proportions..... It is part of the world to have a sub-species of human are fascists. I'm not beholden to their values or commands but I do find it fruitful to harvest from them occasionally (just as I dont wish to be a strawberry bush but am happy to eat strawberries) :D

mooka
18-09--2006, 07:30 PM
i suppose i see your point coyote, but it worries me that you consider people who are medlesome with the established order to be close to 'fascists' (i assume you mean environmentally minded people -extremist or not- who try to make a difference and in the process talk about how people should be acting)

my personal opinion is that governments who do not listen to the voice of tens of thousands of protesters, who allow extremely and increasingly invasive media to influence our choices (must i mention that mainstream media encourages you to be just that -mainstream) etc... well i consider them to be the 'fascists', and those trying to make a difference acting as a valuable counter current to neoliberal capitalism -which, ultimately, has no moral other then 'profit'

Coyote
18-09--2006, 07:42 PM
i suppose i see your point coyote, but it worries me that you consider people who are medlesome with the established order to be close to 'fascists' (i assume you mean environmentally minded people -extremist or not- who try to make a difference and in the process talk about how people should be acting)

Almost all of them ARE just being a different flavour of totalitarian though mooky. They would strike down one mask of empire (which itself considers itself the paragon of morality) and replace it with another empire (which in turn believes IT to be the paragon of morality) but the essence remains the same; Control driven by endemic and intrinsic insecurity.

The rare one who isn’t acts only in a truly apocalyptic situation and then but to undo an empire, not to replace it.


my personal opinion is that governments who do not listen to the voice of tens of thousands of protesters, who allow extremely and increasingly invasive media to influence our choices (must i mention that mainstream media encourages you to be just that -mainstream) etc... well i consider them to be the 'fascists', and those trying to make a difference acting as a valuable counter current to neoliberal capitalism -which, ultimately, has no moral other then 'profit'

I consider them to be fascists too…..but I also recognise that those who would replace them are no more “knight in shining armour” than the historic counterpart of that image ever was .

mooka
18-09--2006, 09:31 PM
hmm but what if i am one of those fascists?? lol
ok, so time for some self-reflexivity... but......


coyote, do you really think that asking SOME people to act more environmentally friendly so that ALL OF OUR DESCENDANTS can enjoy a healthy planet is being fascist?

i dont agree with Earth First! type of action e.g. burning SUVs and planting potentially fatal spikes in tree that are to logged, because brutality does not inspire reason, and that is also a form of terrorising so yes, could be considered akin to fascism....
but wouldnt you admit that alot of people are simply ignorant of the damage they do to the environment? and is it really fascist to tell them they are doing this damage and to point out that since the earth isnt theirs alone but everyones that they should at least try to limit the damage they do?

if my neighbour decides to destroy his own garden, then i suppose its his to destroy if he wishes, but if he decides to destroy the local park or the community garden, i'm sorry but i couldnt stand for that and i dont think its fascist to feel that way

(thats ignoring any debate around the value of private proporty though..... but thats another thread..)

mooka
19-09--2006, 05:49 PM
Its odd, because, well, if you think the world is bad and want to improve it the only way to actually stop it being "bad" is to stop thinking it is bad....then it wont be anymore lol.

No really! Its not about delusion but about how you relate to the world.

um maybe for me it is because i dont face any immanent danger, but are you telling me that someone facing real starvation/ disease/ war/ what have you should simply be told to cheer up and things will be fine??

i know that alot of people's reaction to visiting places like africa is along the lines of: "wow, i cant believe how happy these people are although they are so poor!" but that doesnt mean they dont bawl their hearts out when a family member dies from one of the above mentioned.....

please dont take offense, maybe i'm not getting your point but frankly "think that the world is ok and it will be" sounds like a load of lala land hippy talk, because as you say that, people are getting insanely rich on others lives.


i'm not saying 'the world is bad, it should be this way x y or z instead', i dont have a master plan to impose on the entire human species, but i dont think its fascist to want to help people who are very obviously being f*cked over, when i myself happen to be in the position to help e.g. dont have 6 kids to feed, am not disabled or terminally ill etc.

and you didnt seem to consider what i said about the earth not belonging to a select group of industrialists (despite what these people might think) but to EVERYONE, alive and yet to be born, therefore i dont think its unreasonable to ask for some respect towards it.

mooka
19-09--2006, 06:04 PM
Pretty much agree. Real change can only be achieved from within, and by touching the lives of those immediately around us.

of course, i understand that going around all day being negative, ranting and raving about the shitty state of the world is not going to inspire people to change for the best (i just do that on here, because well its a forum and i dont personally like to chit chat on a forum)

and as i've said before i'm not out to FORCE people into changing, but definetly to INSPIRE them to change, by informing them of the direct and indirect social and environmental consequenses of their actions. You may not believe me but when i'm face to face I dont accuse people of all evils, fire n brimstone style...

I really DONT UNDERSTAND why educating peole of the VERY REAL impact of their actions is so damn bad?? seriously! is it because you yourselves have tried and failed? is it because you're sick of hearing it said? why would you say that trying to change the world is a 'bad' thing? maybe useless, granted, but bad?

coyote you say that no good has ever come from medling... yea ok medling of bolsheviks and of mao tsetung, absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that, but how do you think the charities people give to came into being?? through the actions of 'medlesome' ordinary individuals, who decided that things shoudnt just carry on the way they are! and dont tell me amnesty isnt medlesome!

are you now going to tell me that charities dont do any good at all because they focus on the 'bad' in the world?

Coyote
19-09--2006, 06:08 PM
[deleted by me :) for sake of simplicity ]

Coyote
19-09--2006, 06:13 PM
coyote you say that no good has ever come from medling... yea ok medling of bolsheviks and of mao tsetung, absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that, but how do you think the charities people give to came into being?? through the actions of 'medlesome' ordinary individuals, who decided that things shoudnt just carry on the way they are! and dont tell me amnesty isnt medlesome!

are you now going to tell me that charities dont do any good at all because they focus on the 'bad' in the world?
Its the very attitude of being a monster slayer that is a problem. Like I said, occasionally it is needed (I said that wayyyyy back up this thread); but the problem is when the crusader mentality becomes the norm....because it ALWAYS leads to control "for your own good".....and soon enough become the new problem for a new generation of dragon slayers to fight :rolleyes:


They never stop with just their first "monster" but instead the attitude carries on and over.

mooka
19-09--2006, 06:24 PM
ok.... so other than thinking positively, how do you suggest people can change injustice?

Coyote
19-09--2006, 06:27 PM
ok.... so other than thinking positively, how do you suggest people can change injustice?

What is injustice and why do you think it needs changing?

[serious and genuine questions; not being facetious!]

Atomik
19-09--2006, 06:28 PM
why would you say that trying to change the world is a 'bad' thing? maybe useless, granted, but bad?I never said that. :D

mooka
19-09--2006, 06:32 PM
ok, i'm running out of energy at the moment, but i'll be back!! lol

um, well just to start off with, things like exploiting migrant workers because of their vulnerable position, e.g. they get ridiculously low pay, must work long hard hours for it and are probably exposed to illegal amounts of chemical additives to the crop....
meanwhile who ever owns the fields gets rich

that, to me anyway (and i'd say to them!) is unjust. why should workers be treated so badly for any reason, and on top of it, why should someone else who is not doing back breaking labour, get rich from it?

this happens in many places, but for one in california.

Coyote
19-09--2006, 06:34 PM
why should workers be treated so badly for any reason, and on top of it, why should someone else who is not doing back breaking labour, get rich from it?
Why shouldnt they get rich? Why shouldnt the workers get paid next to nothing for hard labour?

Again, genuine questions.....along with why you think "injustice" in general should stop and what you think is the essence of injustice and thus why it should stop.

:)

Atomik
19-09--2006, 06:42 PM
Why shouldnt they get rich? Why should the workers get paid next to nothing for hard labour?

Again, genuine questions.....along with why you think "injustice" in general should stop and what you think is the essence of injustice and thus why it should stop.

:)Just ignore him, mooks. He's a troublecauser. ;)

mooka
19-09--2006, 06:48 PM
do you get treated like that at work??

tell me why you shouldnt/ what you would think of it if you did

do you also question basic human rights? yes they are 'made up' but do you feel that they are useless because they do not represent an objective truth?

maybe human exploitation of humans is something youd call an objective truth. does this mean you must just accept it? what about those who are exploited, would you walk up to them and tell them plainly they must accept it?

what are you trying to get at? here, i'll admit that whatever my motivation for acting, it is not 'objective truth' so i cannot defend it..... but arguably there are no 'objective truths' at all in the world!

mooka
19-09--2006, 06:49 PM
ARARGGGGARARAGTGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!



lol ok, i'm done....:insane:

HAPPY NOW? instead of caring i'm just gonna go dance, hows that!? :happydanc

Atomik
19-09--2006, 06:50 PM
She's got a point there, Lee. There are plenty of smaller battles that can be fought. It's only the big picture that I've given up on. :D

mooka
19-09--2006, 06:53 PM
(ps: 'essence of injustice'.... how very essentialist of you coyote. dont you know that injustice is only the momentary product of (changing) networks of actors? :p)


ok so i'm easy to wind up.... SO? :o

Coyote
19-09--2006, 08:04 PM
do you get treated like that at work??

tell me why you shouldnt/ what you would think of it if you did

do you also question basic human rights? yes they are 'made up' but do you feel that they are useless because they do not represent an objective truth?

maybe human exploitation of humans is something youd call an objective truth. does this mean you must just accept it? what about those who are exploited, would you walk up to them and tell them plainly they must accept it?

what are you trying to get at? here, i'll admit that whatever my motivation for acting, it is not 'objective truth' so i cannot defend it..... but arguably there are no 'objective truths' at all in the world!

:rolleyes:

Or maybe I was hoping you'd unpack your notion of "injustice" and you assumptions/understandings of why it is something you then disagree with....

I dont expect you to defend objective truth :) if you look at my other posts you'll see I am happy to be a relativist....I was hoping you could look at the deeper motivations though :cool:

Folks who make a practice of trying to control "evil" make a practice of trying to control period.

mooka
19-09--2006, 08:24 PM
this happens in many places, but for one in california.

not too sure about uk

mooka
19-09--2006, 08:42 PM
:rolleyes:

Or maybe I was hoping you'd unpack your notion of "injustice" and you assumptions/understandings of why it is something you then disagree with....

well i thought i'd been making it clear this whole thread, but lets see... 'justice' is obviouly a complex term, with lots of historical, religious and political background... i suppose part of my understanding of it necessarily would come from this background, while part just comes from a gut feeling that we should all be treated equally and have equal opportunity to satisfy our basic needs, because none of us are any 'better' or more deserving than the next. preventing people from doing so.... well i suppose it becomes complicated because what if no specific event leads to this? but alot of the time it is the efforts of certain individuals to make a profit which lead to people not having the opportunity to satisfy basic needs and this to me is unacceptable.......

to be completely honest coyote, i've never sat down and thought through exactly what i consider to be just vs unjust, i just feel that causing harm to people who do not harm you, for the sake of (excessive!) material gain is dispicable. but i guess it would be worth it to consider where exactly i get these notions from...



Folks who make a practice of trying to control "evil" make a practice of trying to control period.

i suppose there is alot of worth in a 'live and let live' philosophy, but consider just a few of the civil rights and basic freedoms that you have today and ask yourself where these have come from...... certainly not from a live and let live attitude! if it werent for countless episodes of resistance by the people throughout history you'd still be working as a slave to your land lord on some plot of land, illiterate and probably already dead because you're way past the life expectancy

Atomik
19-09--2006, 08:57 PM
i suppose there is alot of worth in a 'live and let live' philosophy, but consider just a few of the civil rights and basic freedoms that you have today and ask yourself where these have come from...... certainly not from a live and let live attitude! if it werent for countless episodes of resistance by the people throughout history you'd still be working as a slave to your land lord on some plot of land, illiterate and probably already dead because you're way past the life expectancy:clap:

Youthful idealism 1
Middle aged apathy 0

:D

Coyote
19-09--2006, 09:02 PM
part just comes from a gut feeling that we should all be treated equally and have equal opportunity to satisfy our basic needs, because none of us are any 'better' or more deserving than the next. preventing people from doing so.... well i suppose it becomes complicated because what if no specific event leads to this? but alot of the time it is the efforts of certain individuals to make a profit which lead to people not having the opportunity to satisfy basic needs and this to me is unacceptable.......

What do you want the world to be like then Mooka?


to be completely honest coyote, i've never sat down and thought through exactly what i consider to be just vs unjust, i just feel that causing harm to people who do not harm you, for the sake of (excessive!) material gain is dispicable. but i guess it would be worth it to consider where exactly i get these notions from...

Now, ya see, I would agree with you on looking down on greed, but I don’t hold it as despicable (I consider it neurotic and its just not for me). Greedy folks are just as much a part of the world as the rest of us; its when they would hedge me and mine out that I get concerned and act against them.


i suppose there is alot of worth in a 'live and let live' philosophy, but consider just a few of the civil rights and basic freedoms that you have today and ask yourself where these have come from...... certainly not from a live and let live attitude! if it werent for countless episodes of resistance by the people throughout history you'd still be working as a slave to your land lord on some plot of land, illiterate and probably already dead because you're way past the life expectancy

ROFLMAO :D

Sorry, I’m not laughing at you but at the notion of relying on “countless episodes of resistance by the people throughout history” to grant me “civil” liberties. lol

My liberty is not granted by the leave of anyone, it is mine by inherent nature of my taking liberties not by them being gifted to me :) I don’t have any civil rights because I don’t rely on the law/state to grant me a definition of who I am or what I may do or not do – nor do I remotely trust it to protect any claim to those things it does propose to offer me.

I like to walk with a light tread in the world, its who I am, but part of that means not using a habitual heavy hand to impose that view on others :) I also don’t need a charter of “civil rights” or whatever to instruct me on some notion of how I should treat others. I treat them as is natural to me; as an inherently precious part of the world….but that includes all of them, even the greedy. :) Note though that I do not consider them of equal worth; I simply don’t consider any of them “beyond the pale” because of their nature (unless they directly attack me and mine, in which case I will quite happily stick their head on a spike :D ).

Atomik
19-09--2006, 09:07 PM
My liberty is not granted by the leave of anyone, it is mine by inherent nature of my taking liberties not by them being gifted to me :)I think you'd have had problems with that ideology if you'd been born a feudal peasant.

Coyote
19-09--2006, 09:09 PM
I think you'd have had problems with that ideology if you'd been born a feudal peasant.

Not really; I'd have been outlawed. Simple. :D The catch today is the level of surveillance makes naughty living harder and harder (unless you join in organised crime, which is full of the same kind of nutters you find in govt/police they are just part of a "black" govt/police).....

Atomik
19-09--2006, 09:10 PM
Not really; I'd have been outlawed. Simple. :DBollocks. You'd have been gutted and strung up within days, like the vast majority of outlaws. ;)

Coyote
19-09--2006, 09:57 PM
Bollocks. You'd have been gutted and strung up within days, like the vast majority of outlaws. ;)

You've been watching too much "Cops" and all that "you cant dodge the system" propaganda :whistle: Sure TPTB like to write a history of how they beat the bad outlaws....but we all know how histories are constructed by the "established" power...and if you care to look, just how far the "heath" spread in medieval england and europe :)

Atomik
19-09--2006, 09:59 PM
You've been watching too much "Cops" and all that "you cant dodge the system" propaganda :whistle: Sure TPTB like to write a history of how they beat the bad outlaws....but we all know how histories are constructed by the "established" power...and if you care to look, just how far the "heath" spread in medieval england and europe :)You've been watching too much Robin of Sherwood. :harhar:

Coyote
19-09--2006, 10:01 PM
You've been watching too much Robin of Sherwood. :harhar:

I dont think is actually possible!!! :whistle: :D

Atomik
19-09--2006, 10:13 PM
Good point! :D

mooka
20-09--2006, 01:12 AM
well obviously coyote you will remain steadfast in your beliefs, as will i....

but i think you are still hailing from a perspective of 'if i consider it to be so, it will be so' -power of thought! which frankly ignores all practicality and thus reality, just as much -if not more- than my position.....

anyways, perhaps as i grow older i will lose most of this sense of responsibility for others' condition, but for the moment, in my youthful -if misguided- enthusiasm, i will not be satisfied with simply defending my own interests and letting others fend for themselves. as i've said before, i consider myself to be in an extremely lucky position in that i do not have immediate threats to my survival (that i'm aware of anyway...) and so i feel i can afford to lend my efforts to those who perhaps are less able to defend their own liberty.

and as i've tried to tell you many times, i do not care to proceed with a 'heavy hand', merely to appeal to others' sense of compassion and humanity by encouraging them to find out what consequences their actions have.... after that up to them to try and make their own diff if they care to.

Coyote
20-09--2006, 07:28 AM
and as i've tried to tell you many times, i do not care to proceed with a 'heavy hand', merely to appeal to others' sense of compassion and humanity by encouraging them to find out what consequences their actions have.... after that up to them to try and make their own diff if they care to.

The act of normalised interference in the affairs of others is a heavy hand though Mook; and because of the fundamental suite of values it is based on, will always spread like bindweed throughout you life and actions.... :)


well obviously coyote you will remain steadfast in your beliefs, as will i....

Well, I'm not trying to change yours :) simply discuss the basis of "intervention" as a life policy :)

Atomik
20-09--2006, 08:06 AM
The act of normalised interference in the affairs of others is a heavy hand though Mook; and because of the fundamental suite of values it is based on, will always spread like bindweed throughout you life and actions.... :)Your position is abstract though. While we live in a society with centralised government and political structures, interference is alredy inherently endemic. So within that model, why shouldn't people struggle to improve things? Given that our lives are already being 'interfered' with in the first instance?

Coyote
20-09--2006, 08:12 AM
Your position is abstract though. While we live in a society with centralised government and political structures, interference is alredy inherently endemic. So within that model, why shouldn't people struggle to improve things? Given that our lives are already being 'interfered' with in the first instance?

Like I said, I'm not saying they should not live and work within such a structure, but simply that such a structure is fascistic/authoritarian in action and values. Such folks are mistaken though because calling on the values and practices of authoritarianism will not "improve" an authoritarian situation. :)

mooka
20-09--2006, 08:23 AM
so you're saying you dont believe in education?

you dont think people have a right to know what consequences their actions have? i do. i also know it can require a little extra time or hunch in the first place to go looking, but who's to say people arent grateful to learn what consequences their actions have, what their money is indirectly supporting, and that the full consequences of their actions are not readily presented to them. on the contrary, never would they be advertised as this is contrary to the purpose of advertisment.

i'd say opposing opening people's eyes by letting them know, so effectively keeping them in the dark, is more heavy handed than at least letting them know and letting them do what they will with the information....

do you, personally i mean, not 'theoretically', coyote resent being informed of what the full consequences of your actions are? would you rather stay in the dark and believe the world is just peachy? escapism id call that.....

fairlure to act can have just as many consequences as acting. so at least try to make the outcome intentional, not incidental.... what i mean is, at least take some bloody responsibility.

Coyote
20-09--2006, 08:35 AM
so you're saying you dont believe in education?

Education is not the same thing as learning; although the term has been subtly manipulated to replace “learning” with an active process of “programming”….


you dont think people have a right to know what consequences their actions have? i do. i also know it can require a little extra time or hunch in the first place to go looking, but who's to say people arent grateful to learn what consequences their actions have, what their money is indirectly supporting, and that the full consequences of their actions are not readily presented to them. on the contrary, never would they be advertised as this is contrary to the purpose of advertisment.

From what I’ve seen of people they don’t care much at all what their money is supporting etc….they are happy to be subject to fascism if this gives them security.


i'd say opposing opening people's eyes by letting them know, so effectively keeping them in the dark, is more heavy handed than at least letting them know and letting them do what they will with the information....

LMAO nicely twisted; you should work in propaganda. By my not acting I am having a heavy tread on the world. Orwell would wet himself laughing *rolls eyes*


do you, personally i mean, not 'theoretically', coyote resent being informed of what the full consequences of your actions are? would you rather stay in the dark and believe the world is just peachy? escapism id call that.....

You still don’t get it do you :) The problems you are rallying against are part and parcel of the interventionist mindset you yourself adopt :D

mooka
20-09--2006, 08:38 AM
The act of normalised interference in the affairs of others is a heavy hand though Mook; and because of the fundamental suite of values it is based on, will always spread like bindweed throughout you life and actions....

what if the 'affairs of others' blatantly disregard the fact that over 6 billion people inhabit this planet and use it as life support system, is that not in itself interfering with 'the affairs of others', and specifically here, survival?

mooka
20-09--2006, 08:41 AM
coyote, can i help it if you've upset me just a little?

and dont you think i didnt laugh when you said that wanting to help change things for good was fascist? geez....

anyways, i know that theoretical debates are never ending, so i'll leave you to your immaterial world of positive thinking.

Atomik
20-09--2006, 08:41 AM
You still don’t get it do you :) The problems you are rallying against are part and parcel of the interventionist mindset you yourself adopt :DIsn't that just an excuse for apathy and abject inaction? If people hadn't "interfered" in the past, we wouldn't have had universal education. You wouldn't even be literate enough to be having this conversation.

Let's put it another way. What's your alternative? I asked you on another thread to suggest an alternate model for a better society, and you patently refused to offer one. If you can't suggest a better way of doing things, then what do you have to offer other than apathy?

Coyote
20-09--2006, 08:46 AM
what if the 'affairs of others' blatantly disregard the fact that over 6 billion people inhabit this planet and use it as life support system, is that not in itself interfering with 'the affairs of others', and specifically here, survival?

Like I said, I have no problem with isolated actions against serious singular threats.....but the "make the world better" attitude is an ongoing one of control.

mooka
20-09--2006, 08:47 AM
btw your smileys are very cute but when you're laughing and rolling your eyes at me they are mainly hypocritical

mooka
20-09--2006, 08:50 AM
obviously it 'suits my strategy of interferance' -you can pass up on the comment- but atomik put its very nicely: apathy

Coyote
20-09--2006, 08:57 AM
Isn't that just an excuse for apathy and abject inaction? If people hadn't "interfered" in the past, we wouldn't have had universal education. You wouldn't even be literate enough to be having this conversation.

Because we need education in order to speak...otherwise, in a less artificial state, we are just mumbling uncommunicative lumps :rolleyes:


Let's put it another way. What's your alternative? I asked you on another thread to suggest an alternate model for a better society, and you patently refused to offer one. If you can't suggest a better way of doing things, then what do you have to offer other than apathy?

Better? You misunderstand me dok. There isn’t a “better” option, there are just two broad basic value sets and neither is “better”; just different choices. One is more dangerous than the other, but that doesn’t make it “worse”. The more dangerous one is the mindset which has created the situation mooka is rallying against, however the solution which maintains a ‘society as we know it’ will only swap one “oppression” for another.

Whats the “alternative”? There both is and isn’t one. The alternative comes from seeing the world in a different way and holding a different set of values because of that….but its not like a shop where you can buy one or t’other like some kind of political party membership.

Atomik
20-09--2006, 09:16 AM
Because we need education in order to speak...otherwise, in a less artificial state, we are just mumbling uncommunicative lumps :rolleyes:So you see the 'interference' of education as a good thing then?


Better? You misunderstand me dok. There isn’t a “better” option, there are just two broad basic value sets and neither is “better”; just different choices. One is more dangerous than the other, but that doesn’t make it “worse”. The more dangerous one is the mindset which has created the situation mooka is rallying against, however the solution which maintains a ‘society as we know it’ will only swap one “oppression” for another. So your alternative strategy would seem to be involve never attempting to improve our lot at all?


Whats the “alternative”? There both is and isn’t one. The alternative comes from seeing the world in a different way and holding a different set of values because of that….but its not like a shop where you can buy one or t’other like some kind of political party membership.lNo, but you can improve the situation within the current paradigm. I think the example of slavery was raised at one point. Should people have done nothing and let slavery continue?

Coyote
20-09--2006, 09:24 AM
So you see the 'interference' of education as a good thing then?

Like I keep saying, its not about good or bad, its about different. An ongoing active deliberate systemic education process is part of fascism as it is deciding to impose a state upon someone else - usually from the condecending basis of "awwww poor peasants they are too thick to think for themselves without our teaching them".


So your alternative strategy would seem to be involve never attempting to improve our lot at all?

Like I said before, the alternative approach is one of slight tweaking and rare and occasional serious action. This is opposite the approach of reforgeing the world (rather than just tweaking its basic state) with an ongoing heavy pressure.


Should people have done nothing and let slavery continue?

They did. They just changed its name; indentured service, sweatshops, created workaholicism, work-mechanisation (making people impersonal cogs in an economic machine), mortgage-slavery (where you are tied to an ever more competitive economy or lose your home) etc. :rolleyes:

Atomik
20-09--2006, 09:27 AM
Like I keep saying, its not about good or bad, its about different. An ongoing active deliberate systemic education process is part of fascism as it is deciding to impose a state upon someone else - usually from the condecending basis of "awwww poor peasants they are too thick to think for themselves without our teaching them".I agree, but I can't see how basic literacy falls into that category.


Like I said before, the alternative approach is one of slight tweaking and rare and occasional serious action. This is opposite the approach of reforgeing the world (rather than just tweaking its basic state) with an ongoing heavy pressure.If you're just arguing against the 'reforging' approach, then I'm in agreement with you. But I can't regard the abolition of slavery as a "minor tweak".


They did. They just changed its name; indentured service, sweatshops, created workaholicism, work-mechanisation (making people impersonal cogs in an economic machine), mortgage-slavery (where you are tied to an ever more competitive economy or lose your home) etc. :rolleyes:There's a huge world of difference between actual slavery and wage slavery. I'm amazed you can even draw such a facile comparison.

Coyote
20-09--2006, 09:35 AM
I agree, but I can't see how basic literacy falls into that category.

Literacy is not needed for decent communication - and it contains certain rules that actually shape an argument towards a more authoritarian form of thinking.


If you're just arguing against the 'reforging' approach, then I'm in agreement with you. But I can't regard the abolition of slavery as a "minor tweak".

Folks didnt just try to ban slavery, but instead sought to "raise the black man to our level of living, through education" :rolleyes: It was part of a social engineering package.


There's a huge world of difference between actual slavery and wage slavery. I'm amazed you can even draw such a facile comparison.

Yes there is, but they are still a state of compulsion where you are a cog. Sure wage slaves have velvetcoated bars to the cage, but a guilded cage remains a cage.

Atomik
20-09--2006, 09:40 AM
Literacy is not needed for decent communication - and it contains certain rules that actually shape an argument towards a more authoritarian form of thinking.So you're saying that universal literacy isn't a desirable goal then?


Folks didnt just try to ban slavery, but instead sought to "raise the black man to our level of living, through education" :rolleyes: It was part of a social engineering package.Irrelevant. We're still in a better place without it.


Yes there is, but they are still a state of compulsion where you are a cog. Sure wage slaves have velvetcoated bars to the cage, but a guilded cage remains a cage.I don't disagree. But that still doesn't make wage slavery anything like as bad as actual slavery. For starters, I spend the vast majority of my life truly happy. I find it hard to believe I'd have the same luxury if I was a slave.

Coyote
20-09--2006, 09:45 AM
So you're saying that universal literacy isn't a desirable goal then?

Not to me it isnt. In an authoritarian system its very desirable, but I dont count it as an inherently good thing.


Irrelevant. We're still in a better place without it.

If the world is so good why are there so many crusaders still trying to change it?


I don't disagree. But that still doesn't make wage slavery anything like as bad as actual slavery. For starters, I spend the vast majority of my life truly happy. I find it hard to believe I'd have the same luxury if I was a slave.

Well, your masters have learned that a slave with comforts and pleasures is a better behaved one; the lives of nearly all are still more dedicated to work than play.

Atomik
20-09--2006, 09:47 AM
Not to me it isnt. In an authoritarian system its very desirable, but I dont count it as an inherently good thing.Well we're on such totally different pages here that there's not much else to discuss.


If the world is so good why are there so many crusaders still trying to change it?Ummm... where did I say the world was good?


Well, your masters have learned that a slave with comforts and pleasures is a better behaved one; the lives of nearly all are still more dedicated to work than play.Indeed. So are you now arguing that it's better to suffer? Given that it's pointless to rail against the system (which is what you've been arguing), then doesn't that leave increased comfort within the system as the only option?

Coyote
20-09--2006, 09:52 AM
Well we're on such totally different pages here that there's not much else to discuss.

Why do you think universal literacy is an inherently good thing?


Ummm... where did I say the world was good?

Nope....but you can guarantee when folks are trying to ban slavery they will portray the world after it as "flowing with milk and honey". :rolleyes:


Indeed. So are you now arguing that it's better to suffer? Given that it's pointless to rail against the system (which is what you've been arguing), then doesn't that leave increased comfort within the system as the only option?

Not at all. I'm saying there are two basic value sets; one of which is authorianism. It isnt a Good/Evil divide. Authoritatianism carries a sliding scale of comfort within it, and many folks choose that over the alternative because they believe it gives them much needed (in their minds) security.

Atomik
20-09--2006, 09:56 AM
Why do you think universal literacy is an inherently good thing?To be honest dude, I can't be arsed having this conversation, coz we're just gonna disagree and not really progress any further.


Nope....but you can guarantee when folks are trying to ban slavery they will portray the world after it as "flowing with milk and honey". :rolleyes:Depends who you're talking about specifically. I think you dismiss people too easily. But yes, I agree there's a "world changing" tendency in many people, but maybe you should recognise that this isn't necessarily an ego trip, but more a sign that they feel such compassion that they're compelled to try and act? Even is such actions are futile or misguided?


Not at all. I'm saying there are two basic value sets; one of which is authorianism. It isnt a Good/Evil divide. Authoritatianism carries a sliding scale of comfort within it, and many folks choose that over the alternative because they believe it gives them much needed (in their minds) security.And what would you suggest is the alternative?

mooka
20-09--2006, 10:00 AM
i hate to admit that i cant sleep for this cr*p but here i am.... christ.

i resent how smug you are coyote when you say 'you dont get it do you?'... but yea, i do get it. it get what you're saying theoretically. theoretically it is sound to equate interference with control and control with authority and authority with fascism..... but this thread began with the REAL WORLD in mind.

and in terms of the real world your theory, by which obviously you wish to live, is also a 'sound' excuse for not giving a shit about anyone but your own good self.

two different levels............

ps: let me know, if one day for some inexplicable reason you get a couple of lashes across your back, if you'll dare stand up and say that straight slavery is equal in REAL HUMAN EXPERIENCE to wage slavery

Atomik
20-09--2006, 10:01 AM
i resent how smug you are coyote when you say 'you dont get it do you?'You do come across as a little smug, mate. And I say that as someone who comes across as an 'orrible tactless bastard. :D

Coyote
20-09--2006, 10:11 AM
To be honest dude, I can't be arsed having this conversation, coz we're just gonna disagree and not really progress any further.

Pity, cos I'd like to know what is so good (allegedly) about universal literacy...personally I find that concept to be an illusion created by the arrogance of the over-analysing part of folks minds (as it likes to claim its importance over all :rolleyes:); it created words, then written words (which are even MORE linear) and then insisted such should be central in the transmission of knowledge…as if words could capture the hologramic panorama of the world! lol


Depends who you're talking about specifically. I think you dismiss people too easily. But yes, I agree there's a "world changing" tendency in many people, but maybe you should recognise that this isn't necessarily an ego trip, but more a sign that they feel such compassion that they're compelled to try and act? Even is such actions are futile or misguided?


If the recipient of intervention genuinely agrees to the intervention, fair enough. But when such agreement is gained through duplicity that is not the case…..

Note, I’m not railing against authoritarianism (which makes this all the more complex to discuss…as “fascists! BOO!” is a lot easier lol) but am saying that it fights its own tyrants (slavery, low-education etc) with its own tyrants (control systems, programming). Todays hero is tomorrows monster **rolls eyes**


And what would you suggest is the alternative?

Like I said, I’m not proposing an authoritarian=evil alternative=good divide. They are both equally valid in this world. I simply find myself not beholden to the values of authoritarianism.

There is a different “choice” but I cant really do it justice here (although I am working on a related article with a pagan related theme…so when that’s finished I’ll use that if you are still awake :D ).

Coyote
20-09--2006, 10:16 AM
i resent how smug you are coyote when you say 'you dont get it do you?'... but yea, i do get it. .....

ps: let me know, if one day for some inexplicable reason you get a couple of lashes across your back, if you'll dare stand up and say that straight slavery is equal in REAL HUMAN EXPERIENCE to wage slavery

:rolleyes:

you say you get it and then give an example of how you dont

:rolleyes:

I already said they are not equal forms of slavery, but forms of slavery they remain....and I'll bet ya folks are as fired up about minimum wage legislation as they were about removing chains


get what you're saying theoretically. theoretically it is sound to equate interference with control and control with authority and authority with fascism..... but this thread began with the REAL WORLD in mind.

and in terms of the real world your theory, by which obviously you wish to live, is also a 'sound' excuse for not giving a shit about anyone but your own good self.

Yet again you show you have not grasped what I said. To re-iterate....I said "me and mine" not "own good self". I go for a light tread in a world full of inherently precious people (including other than human people).

But because I dont hold to your agenda you accuse me of "not giving a shit about anyone" ROFL

Caring is not predicated on interference.

Atomik
20-09--2006, 10:17 AM
Pity, cos I'd like to know what is so good (allegedly) about universal literacy...personally I find that concept to be an illusion created by the arrogance of the over-analysing part of folks minds (as it likes to claim its importance over all :rolleyes:); it created words, then written words (which are even MORE linear) and then insisted such should be central in the transmission of knowledge…as if words could capture the hologramic panorama of the world! lolSo I don't wanna talk about it to avoid further pointless discussion, and your solution is to carry on lecturing me instead? Start a thread if you're that interested. :rolleyes:


If the recipient of intervention genuinely agrees to the intervention, fair enough. But when such agreement is gained through duplicity that is not the case…..That's a bit vague. Could you give some specific examples to illustrate this point please?

Note, I’m not railing against authoritarianism (which makes this all the more complex to discuss…as “fascists! BOO!” is a lot easier lol) but am saying that it fights its own tyrants (slavery, low-education etc) with its own tyrants (control systems, programming). Todays hero is tomorrows monster **rolls eyes**


Like I said, I’m not proposing an authoritarian=evil alternative=good divide. They are both equally valid in this world. I simply find myself not beholden to the values of authoritarianism.So you don't feel that the existing system affects you at all then?

Atomik
20-09--2006, 10:19 AM
I already said they are not equal forms of slavery, but forms of slavery they remain....and I'll bet ya folks are as fired up about minimum wage legislation as they were about removing chains But that was never the point of the discussion. The point revolved around whether it was worthwhile to abolish slavery.


But because I dont hold to your agenda you accuse me of "not giving a shit about anyone" ROFL
Dude.. true or not, that reall is the way you come across. I don't think that of you coz I think I have a better idea where you're coming from, but it's the impression you give to the casual observer.

Coyote
20-09--2006, 10:23 AM
That's a bit vague. Could you give some specific examples to illustrate this point please?

The way western society is being exported to expand markets; so that education ("betterment") is given in the third world in order for them to better service the global economy.

The way missionaries used education as a cover for expansion of christianity in africa.

The way rome sought to civilise the world....in order to expand its control.

Its all about a bunch of folks feeling very insecure, seeing monsters "out there", establishing a strict order to give security, and then expanding that network of control (and thus their security).


So you don't feel that the existing system affects you at all then?

Of course it does, but I dont lesson or undo that by adopting its values :rolleyes:

Coyote
20-09--2006, 10:29 AM
But that was never the point of the discussion. The point revolved around whether it was worthwhile to abolish slavery.

Its odd isnt it, how I am accused of not addressing the real world but when I point out that slavery has not been abolished but has simply changed its name I am complained at for not addressing the "ideal" of a world without slavery....:confused:


Dude.. true or not, that reall is the way you come across. I don't think that of you coz I think I have a better idea where you're coming from, but it's the impression you give to the casual observer.

If I worried about what every casual observer misunderstood about me, I'd probably be sat in the corner rocking :D

People judge others based on their own conceptions and values; if I stand for something different to so someone who advocates social engineering I am pretty much ALWAYS going to be portrayed as an uncaring monster :rolleyes: I'm kind of used to it.....:rolleyes:

i just have a different definition of caring that does not gell with their paranoia :(