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Thread: Human Nature and Conspiracy Theories.

  1. #25
    I think things are 'conspiracy theories' when they're not believed in by the majority.

    But if you look at any of them individually you can't group it all together - stuff like 9/11 was an inside job has tonnes of evidence behind it and I can consider there's a high chance it was.
    But when you get onto the pyramids being built by aliens, I become wary - and the sad thing is, the things become grouped together under the same heading, so people dismiss some of them because the same people are saying the Queen is a reptilian humanoid.

    Maybe when people become obsessed with conspiracy theories they're filling the void to believe in some greater authority or a desire to believe in something more than what we can see, but for some of them, you don't have to be mental, you have to be rational - and open-minded.


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    Originally Posted by matty
    But I remember a time when there were those who said that global warming was a rumour spread by c.t's. I tend to believe the worst until I see evidence to the contrary. I try to believe in the best in people but when it comes down to large organisations and governments, it always come down to money.
    Of course it was a rumour started by c.t's, and even though the scientific industry have latched onto it, doesn't make it any less of a 'theory'. We just don't call it a conspiracy theory anymore.

    The truth is, we don't know anything - stuff we take for granted like gravity and relativity, aren't proved beyond doubt, we can't know anything - and to an evangelist, believing in evolution must seem as crazy as coming across someone who thinks KFC is owned by the Ku Klux Klan.
    It's all a matter of perspective I think is my point
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  2. #26
    RoobieDoobie Doo matty's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Atomik
    Not me.
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    Well that's a mistake. You should believe the conclusion that the evidence leads you to. Anything else is an assumption and not based on fact.
    No i don't think of it as a mistake, having studied the evidence my ' a priori' knowledge leads me to believe as I said, that when it comes to large commercial enterprises,you have to start by doubting their intentions, if you are subsequently proven to be mistaken, you can always modify your opinion.(took a long time to answer due to friends and beer getting in way)
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  3. #27

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    Originally Posted by matty
    No i don't think of it as a mistake, having studied the evidence my ' a priori' knowledge leads me to believe as I said, that when it comes to large commercial enterprises,you have to start by doubting their intentions
    That's not what you originally said. You said in a given scenario, you'd assume the worst. If you're now saying simply that you'd doubt the intentions of companies, governments etc, then I'd agree entirely.

  4. #28

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    Originally Posted by elfqueenofrohan
    But if you look at any of them individually you can't group it all together - stuff like 9/11 was an inside job has tonnes of evidence behind it
    Bolocks. It has a load of well-crafted bullshit behind it that doesn't stand up to intelligent examination. However, can we possibly avoid this becoming another 9/11 thread please? It gets kinda boring when every thread where conspiracy theories are mentioned becomes a discussion about 9/11. In fact, I seem to remember his insistance in discussing 9/11 at every single opportunity contributed towards WL getting booted.
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    but for some of them, you don't have to be mental, you have to be rational - and open-minded.
    The problem is that people are very dumb, and tend to believe flimsy evidence because they see it portrayed on the internet as fact. The internet is not a good source of information.

  5. #29
    RoobieDoobie Doo matty's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Atomik
    That's not what you originally said. You said in a given scenario, you'd assume the worst. If you're now saying simply that you'd doubt the intentions of companies, governments etc, then I'd agree entirely.
    I stand by that, in a given scenario I would assume the worst as the evedence I have acumulated leads me to believe it to be true. so it is an evidence based decision. I'm glad you agree with my doubts tho'.
    I'll join you in this one again shortly got to do school run, although I do have my doubts about 'Bollocks' being a rational and reasoned part of a debate
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  6. #30
    RoobieDoobie Doo matty's Avatar
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    Of course it was a rumour started by c.t's, and even though the scientific industry have latched onto it, doesn't make it any less of a 'theory'. We just don't call it a conspiracy theory anymore.

    In Fact it's not even a theory any more.
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  7. #31

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    Originally Posted by matty
    I stand by that, in a given scenario I would assume the worst as the evedence I have acumulated leads me to believe it to be true. so it is an evidence based decision. I'm glad you agree with my doubts tho'.
    Well I'd consider that unreasonable. The evidence of history does not suggest that every event is the result of a conspiracy, so assuming the worst is logically bad practice.

    although I do have my doubts about 'Bollocks' being a rational and reasoned part of a debate
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    It wasn't meant to be. It was the response of someone who's very bored of going around in circles about 9/11 every time the word "conspiracy" is mentioned. Debating with people who believe the 9/11 CT is like debating with christian fundies.

  8. #32
    RoobieDoobie Doo matty's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Atomik
    Well I'd consider that unreasonable. The evidence of history does not suggest that every event is the result of a conspiracy, so assuming the worst is logically bad practice.


    But within the context of this discusion I think that it's an ok viewpoint,I agree that not all events in history are the result of conspiracy, but some are .It becomes very easy to disregard alot of the silly theories but sooner or later you come across one that holds water. Can't say that this is true for religions tho'. religion comes accross as one great big conspiracy, 'they tell me of a pie up in the sky'

    It wasn't meant to be. It was the response of someone who's very bored of going around in circles about 9/11 every time the word "conspiracy" is mentioned. Debating with people who believe the 9/11 CT is like debating with christian fundies.
    .
    That one I agree with, but missed the debates first time round
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    ( I think the conspiracy started after the act myself, but hey ho
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    o.k
    Last edited by matty; 17-09--2007 at 06:07 PM.
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  9. #33

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    Originally Posted by matty
    In Fact it's not even a theory any more.
    how is it not a theory??? it is a theory because it's not proved beyond doubt.. and there are flaws in it.. I believe in global warming.. but it would be arrogant for me to say that it is DEFINITELY true.


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    Originally Posted by Atomik
    Bolocks. It has a load of well-crafted bullshit behind it that doesn't stand up to intelligent examination. However, can we possibly avoid this becoming another 9/11 thread please? It gets kinda boring when every thread where conspiracy theories are mentioned becomes a discussion about 9/11. In fact, I seem to remember his insistance in discussing 9/11 at every single opportunity contributed towards WL getting booted.
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    As for 9/11, I wasn't gonna make this a thread about it and I didn't pay attention to the earlier ones, but d'you have a link to them, because I couldn't find them?
    It is fascinating and I don't know how you can say it certainly wasn't, but yeah, I understand you don't wanna discuss this here (hence why I wanna see the arguements you had before!)
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  10. #34
    Radiant Being John's Avatar
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    Katie, you're getting the two definitions of "theory" confused.
    Theory:
    1. Unproven conjecture
    2. A coherent statement or set of statements that attempts to explain observed phenomena.
    F'instance, the theory of evolution falls under the second definition but conspiracy theories definately fall into the first. It's very important to know which is which.
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  11. #35

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    Originally Posted by elfqueenofrohan
    As for 9/11, I wasn't gonna make this a thread about it and I didn't pay attention to the earlier ones, but d'you have a link to them, because I couldn't find them?
    No offence mate, but I'm not spending my time searching the forums for threads that bored me to tears the first time round.

  12. #36

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    Originally Posted by John
    Katie, you're getting the two definitions of "theory" confused.
    Theory:
    1. Unproven conjecture
    2. A coherent statement or set of statements that attempts to explain observed phenomena.
    F'instance, the theory of evolution falls under the second definition but conspiracy theories definately fall into the first. It's very important to know which is which.
    Of course, you believe in evolution, therefore you're not going to consider it unproven conjecture.

    But points 1 and 2 aren't mutually exclusive. A theory can quite happily be both.


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    Originally Posted by Atomik
    No offence mate, but I'm not spending my time searching the forums for threads that bored me to tears the first time round.
    okay dw sorry! didn't mean to annoy u x x
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  13. #37
    Mtoonseudrsid Coyote's Avatar
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    Part of the problem is that CT is a term of abuse often used to slap down arguments because of its link with "its the shape-shifting lizards"
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    So the post-911, kennedy assasination, moon-landings etc are all put in the same box as hollow earth, multi-dimensional reptiles from beta-draconis and ancient alien stories.

    Another part is that CTs state the bleeding obvious as somehow secret - "Pssst, the civilised world is run by and for the uber-rich few, who keep the power over the generations and who see everyone else as cattle". Duh! No shit sherlock! :harhar:
    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  14. #38

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    Originally Posted by elfqueenofrohan
    Of course, you believe in evolution, therefore you're not going to consider it unproven conjecture.
    But evolution isn't unproven conjecture - that's the point. It's an unproven theory supported with extremely strong evidence, none of which contradicts any other evidence that we have for the origin of species. Are you aware of a better theory? Other than god planting dinosaur fossil records to fool archaeologists?
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  15. #39

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    Originally Posted by Coyote
    Part of the problem is that CT is a term of abuse often used to slap down arguments because of its link with "its the shape-shifting lizards"
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    So the post-911, kennedy assasination, moon-landings etc are all put in the same box as hollow earth, multi-dimensional reptiles from beta-draconis and ancient alien stories.
    Personally, the theories I lump together are the ones that are propagated with blind belief. I'm open to any theory, but what defines a conspiracy theory for me is when its advocates act with prejudice in favour of that theory when examining the evidence. Most conspiracy theorists don't approach the evidence impartially and look for the conclusion suggested by the facts - they look for facts that support their theory and actively attempt to undermine any alternative explanation of events. That's bad logical practice and won't get you to the truth.

  16. #40

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    Originally Posted by Atomik
    But evolution isn't unproven conjecture - that's the point. It's an unproven theory supported with extremely strong evidence, none of which contradicts any other evidence that we have for the origin of species. Are you aware of a better theory? Other than god planting dinosaur fossil records to fool archaeologists?
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    there are gaps and flaws with evolution.. as with any theory..
    and just because I don't know of a better theory doesn't mean it's true.
    it's always something considered as fact when it isn't....



    But a lot of CTs are impartial... they seek the truth. there are always gonna be some which look totally for one side of the arguement but you get vice versa too - so many people have genuinely tried to find the reality and come out as the CT being true, that it's silly to totally dismiss it without at least looking into it first hand.
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  17. #41

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    Originally Posted by elfqueenofrohan
    there are gaps and flaws with evolution.. as with any theory..
    I didn't say there weren't. What I said... and I chose my words carefully... is that it's a theory support by extremeley strong evidence. And a large, impartial body of extremely strong evidence, come to that!

    and just because I don't know of a better theory doesn't mean it's true.
    it's always something considered as fact when it isn't....
    But the reason that there's no alternative theory is because the evidence simply doesn't point towards one. No, it's not 100% proven, but to compare it to a conspiracy theory is comparing chalk to cheese.

    But a lot of CTs are impartial... they seek the truth.
    I'm afraid I don't believe that. It's a claim you'll hear very often, but it's an empty claim.

    it's silly to totally dismiss it without at least looking into it first hand.
    I don't dismiss anything out of hand. I look at the available evidence.

  18. #42

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    Originally Posted by Atomik
    I didn't say there weren't. What I said... and I chose my words carefully... is that it's a theory support by extremeley strong evidence. And a large, impartial body of extremely strong evidence, come to that!

    But the reason that there's no alternative theory is because the evidence simply doesn't point towards one. No, it's not 100% proven, but to compare it to a conspiracy theory is comparing chalk to cheese.

    I'm afraid I don't believe that. It's a claim you'll hear very often, but it's an empty claim.

    I don't dismiss anything out of hand. I look at the available evidence.
    It depends which conspiracy theory you compare it to! If we're talking about aliens building the moon then that's akin to religion instead i.e. it is impossible to prove it either way (but as with religion I do think it's important to be aware that we can't prove it either way rather than just say it's not true/it is true). I mean, where do the ideas come from? Why do some people believe them if there's zilch behind them?

    As for conspiracy theorists always having an agenda.. (is that twisting your words? i think that's what you meant) well what defines a conspiracy theorist.
    like, there's some conspiracy theories I believe in - does that make me one? i wouldn't say so and i certainly wouldn't say i'm biased.
    if it just means people like alex jones i totally agree but that also doesn't mean everything he says is bullshit (even if he is a twat imo)
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  19. #43

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    Originally Posted by elfqueenofrohan
    It depends which conspiracy theory you compare it to!
    No it doesn't. Every conspiracy theory I've ever encountered offers an alternative interpretation of established facts. Evolution is not an alternative explanation of established facts - it is the only interpretation of establoished facts.

    I mean, where do the ideas come from? Why do some people believe them if there's zilch behind them?
    That's a nonsense argument. People used to believe in a flat earth as well. Does that mean there must have been "something behind it"?

    As for conspiracy theorists always having an agenda.. (is that twisting your words? i think that's what you meant) well what defines a conspiracy theorist.
    I would say that that is what defines a conspiracy theorist - someone who looks to prove their theory and does so with prejudice.

    like, there's some conspiracy theories I believe in - does that make me one? i wouldn't say so and i certainly wouldn't say i'm biased.
    No offence Katie, but I'd just say you have bad judgement.
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  20. #44

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    Originally Posted by Atomik
    No it doesn't. Every conspiracy theory I've ever encountered offers an alternative interpretation of established facts. Evolution is not an alternative explanation of established facts - it is the only interpretation of establoished facts.
    but, um, isn't that what charles darwin did? he offered an alternative explanation to what was established as fact?
    and he was called mad and considered a pillock and no one took him seriously...
    And things which are established fact - like the whole eugenics thing (which led to the holocaust ultimately) supported by churchill roosevelt h.g. wells, 'evidence' was found at top american universities, it was proved, it was well-established fact. this wasn't even 100 years ago.
    And yet now, it's seen as madness, racism, the most horrific idea and how could people, all these top scientists at harvard and yale, have beleived it was true?
    it's not the only example. and i'm not saing evolution or gravity or global warming are the same. but it's just... we must be careful with everything we want to believe
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    That's a nonsense argument. People used to believe in a flat earth as well. Does that mean there must have been "something behind it"?
    well, people didn't, generally, believe that. a few did but nt the majority.
    i don't know the reasons behind the ones who believed it but, well i dunno

    I would say that that is what defines a conspiracy theorist - someone who looks to prove their theory and does so with prejudice.

    No offence Katie, but I'd just say you have bad judgement.
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    well ok, but you know me. you can't say that anyone who believes this stuff has bad judgement? can you?
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  21. #45

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    Originally Posted by elfqueenofrohan
    but, um, isn't that what charles darwin did? he offered an alternative explanation to what was established as fact?
    No. There were no "established facts" at the time - there was religious nonsense. Your analogy is nonsensical.

    And things which are established fact - like the whole eugenics thing (which led to the holocaust ultimately) supported by churchill roosevelt h.g. wells, 'evidence' was found at top american universities, it was proved, it was well-established fact. this wasn't even 100 years ago.
    And yet now, it's seen as madness, racism, the most horrific idea and how could people, all these top scientists at harvard and yale, have beleived it was true?
    You're ultimately confusing two things again. Science and politics are not the same thing. An interpretation of scientific theory is baed upon the understood science of the day. Conspiracy theories are not scientific theories.... they're social and political theories.

    ... we must be careful with everything we want to believe
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    Absolutely. Unfortunately, this is not the practice of your average conspiracy theorist. It has to be applied to all theories in order to be correct and impartial - not just those that you'd like to disprove.

    well ok, but you know me. you can't say that anyone who believes this stuff has bad judgement? can you?
    Frankly, yes I can. Especially given the types of people who've generally advocated conspiracy theories on this forum.

  22. #46

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    Originally Posted by Atomik

    Absolutely. Unfortunately, this is not the practice of your average conspiracy theorist. It has to be applied to all theories in order to be correct and impartial - not just those that you'd like to disprove.
    let's say your right ok, hyperthetically, and that all these people who believe in this stuff are talking crap and are dismissing 'truth' in favour of what they want to believe. (although, i've heard conspiracy theorists say exactly the same about people who don't believe them lol)
    Why on earth would they do that?
    I mean, I've done some research, not loads granted, and what I have found may suggest this theory is true, but I know it might not be, like with any theory, but it just doesn't make any sense why they'd want to believe in something if they get nothing out of it.
    Like.. if it's religion I can understand people fooling themselves (if it's not true anyway) as it's a reassurance and all that jazz, but why would someone want to believe something which doesn't actually make any difference to anything in their life unless there's good reason behind it ?

    surely... as there are alternative explnations it means we should pay more attention than if there weren't. like if we don't have a clue what's going on and we make up some crap, that's fine i guess, but if there is an idea, and yet people are questioning it and saying hang on, but i think this isn't true because of this that and the other - why would they do that? unless there was something behind it. i can't see the reasoning apart from wanting to share the truth!!!!!!!

    does that make sense or am i talking bullshit again?
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  23. #47
    Mtoonseudrsid Coyote's Avatar
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    What do CTs discuss?

    They propose that the problems of the world are down to the illuminati, the space aliens, the shapechanging lizards, the shadow government, the Harrp array or whoever....rather than taking resposibility for the simple fact that everyday millions choose greed over modesty, grudges over tollerance, 'purity' over mixture and force over gentleness.

    They distract from the truth; embracing glamour in preference.
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  24. #48

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    Originally Posted by Coyote
    What do CTs discuss?

    They propose that the problems of the world are down to the illuminati, the space aliens, the shapechanging lizards, the shadow government, the Harrp array or whoever....rather than taking resposibility for the simple fact that everyday millions choose greed over modesty, grudges over tollerance, 'purity' over mixture and force over gentleness.

    They distract from the truth; embracing glamour in preference.
    I hadn't looked at it like that.
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    Thank you.
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