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Thread: Kids who do not eat meat are not abused!

  1. #25
    Ah found it! Moderator FriedOnion's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pyke13
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    Also there has been plenty of serial killers who have also been veggie.
    I think you'll find that's cereal killers...
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  2. #26
    Heavenly Creature
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    I think there is a huge problem labeling parents as commiting child abuse by making their children vegan/vegetiaian/meateaters

    It is a lifestyle choice and we on this forum should be very careful about labeling "likestyle choices" as abusive

    And is really different to what is really child abuse:
    neglect
    emotional
    physical
    sexual abuse

  3. #27
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    I think that if parents are feeding their kids an absolute shite excuse of a diet, then of course it's abuse - no, it's not in the same league as administering a beating, and its acceptability means parents rarely realise what they're doing - but it's still paving the way for an unhealthy adulthood filled with contradictory ethics.

    Ergo, neglecting your kid's diet potentially leads to both physical and emotional issues in later life.
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  4. #28
    Heavenly Creature Editor aman's Avatar
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    I believe restricting a child's diet is abusive as it can have long term health issues. I also believe that this is not confined to vegetarian or vegan diets but any diet that could be lacking in essential nutrients. I would be equally concerned if a child was fed on a low fat diet or a meat only diet. It just so happens that the thread the original quote was taken from was discussion about veganism from the perspective of someone who's opening line was "I fucking hate people" or something similar.

    I have been a little bit nervous of posting in my defence in this thread because it is in a section that is virtually out of bounds to my beliefs

    Paul
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  5. #29
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aman
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    I have been a little bit nervous of posting in my defence in this thread because it is in a section that is virtually out of bounds to my beliefs
    I moved the thread into the "parenting" section yesterday.

    Now there will always be people who say "you don't have kids, you can't comment", but everyone on here has been a child and should therefore be aware of the issues that affected them.
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  6. #30
    Transcending ian52hants's Avatar
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    It is kids who get a crap diet that are being abused, whether it includes meat or not.

    In my experience most veggies will be better at giving a more nutritious balanced diet because they know they are deliberately excluding a food group and do not want to hurt their precious pooping, puking, screaming bundle of joy.

    As regards those who say they will be missing out on essential nutrients it is actually the other way round in terms of diet abuse. Vegetables contain more of the essential nutrients for development than meat. Meat is needed for a reasonable few but with modern supplements these can be more readily replaced than the multitude of essential trace stuff in vegetables.

    So the pizza and chicken nugget brigade are doing more harm than the broccoli and beans brigade.

    Ian
    (Omnivore)
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  7. #31
    Heavenly Creature Editor aman's Avatar
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    I agree wholeheartedly with you Ian. That is why I said any restrictive diet. It was just that the argument at the time was with a hating vegan who was displaying some of the symptoms of B12 deficiency. We are omnivores and as such need a balanced diet.

    A diet that requires supplements to make up for deficiencies is not a diet I wish to follow let alone be inflicted on a child

    paul
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  8. #32
    Ah found it! Moderator FriedOnion's Avatar
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    It's true that B12 is very tricky to get within a vegan rather than vegetarian diet but most if not all milk substitutes include it, you could argue that feeding a kid sugary shit for breakfast that is enriched in vitamins & iron is supplementing their diet. The same goes for giving kids extra bottles of milk when they're young. It's interesting that Eastern diets that skip the milk have less problems with osteoporosis than milk heavy Western diets.

    I think a lot of what we're stating as "facts" here is half understood rehashed snippets from experts that seem to only have half a clue themselves.

  9. #33
    Heavenly Creature Editor aman's Avatar
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    There are very few natural sources of B12 outside of meat, fish and shellfish. True herbivores obtain it from bacteria that occure naturally in their highly specialised gut. Some kinds of seaweed are purported to contain B12 but it is not 100%, eggs contain it but it is destroyed when cooked I believe. It can be synthesised using bacteria and turned into supplements.

    As you say FriedOnion, there never seems to be definitive proof when it come to nutrition as so many studies and so called experts are funded by one food industry player or another. All I or any one else can do it try to sort through the evidence and make up their own minds.

    paul
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  10. #34
    Heavenly Creature Editor aman's Avatar
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    It is interesting about the east west divide when it comes to milk and osteoporosis. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that raw milk has virtually disappeared in the west and pasteurisation kills off all the goodness in the milk.

    I read that the rise in lactose intolerance is in line with the prevalence of pasteurisation and lactose intolerant people can happily drink raw milk because it still contains the enzymes required to digest milk properly. I don't know how true that is but I had never heard of anyone being lactose intolerant when I was a kid.

    paul
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  11. #35
    but there is no reason why children cannot be healthy on a vegetarian or vegan diet and to liken it to abuse is very closed minded. most veggies and vegans think a lot about their diet and are less likely to use formula milk etc plus they avoid the crappy western diet that the majority eat (ie fast food etc) which is far more abusive to a child. the meat that most people eat is NOT healthy. it is full of shite, hormones and toxins. processed meats are carcinogenic. also the health visitors in this country recommend that all kids under 5 have supplements not just veggie kids, and research is also showing that we all need vitamin d3 (with k2).

  12. #36
    Heavenly Creature greenvanman's Avatar
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    My daughter is a veggie and I respect her choice. However, she's not very healthy, and I'm pleased that she allows her kids to eat meat along with the food that she prefers for herself. Her partner eats meat and the kids wish to eat it as well.
    I can see where the determined veggies are coming from, and in part I agree with them. I think it's a far more complex issue than many on here are stating, and trying to force your feelings onto others is a very judgemental action in my view.
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  13. #37
    do you know that her lack of health is related to diet?
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  14. #38
    Well I eat meat but I'm aware that most veggies & vegans take much more notice of what they are eating nutrition wise than I do, so to accuse anyone of child abuse just because they don't give their kids meat is preposterous imho.
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  15. #39
    Noobie phoe's Avatar
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    What nutrients are in meat that cannot be found in other foods?

  16. #40
    Ah found it! Moderator FriedOnion's Avatar
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    The main one is vitamin B12 but that is now commercially created and placed into most milk substitutes a vegan is likely to buy. There isn't anything else in meat unavailable elsewhere, it is in larger quantities in meat or easier to absorb into the body. Typical examples being protein and vitamin D, they are present in many foods just not in such great quantities.

    A good reference here:

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  17. #41
    Noobie phoe's Avatar
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    I get my B12 from Marmite to be honest.
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  18. #42
    Turning On jonnyburgo's Avatar
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    Our kids are veggie, have been from birth, they have extremely healthy balanced diet and good immune systems, are very rarely ill and have NEVER been to the GP since they were babies. I'm not saying that is all down to eating healthily but I believe it helps.

    The fact is that if you are a lazy veggie or carnivore you can get fat and ill on either diet if you go down the convenience food route and eat shit all the time.

    The wider effect of purchasing meat is well documented, the industry doesn't give a fuck about the animals, the people buying it or the planet.
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  19. #43
    I didn't read the original thread because the rants about feminism wound me up and I'm just tired of hearing them. But to suggest that giving your child a vegetarian diet is tantamount to abuse is just terrible. You can have a bad diet whether you eat meat or not, one of my best friends actually has a terrible diet and eats a lot of sugary foods, which affects her health, but she'd eat a lot of sugary food if she wasn't a vegetarian, but people blame her poor immune system on her being a veggie.
    But if we're going to accuse veggie parents of abusing their children where do we draw the line? Are religious parents abusive? Parents who don't immunise? Homeschoolers? Abuse is a serious issue and seems to be bandied about too easily, there's a risk of diluting the core issue.
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  20. #44
    Transcending cuckoo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aman
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    It is interesting about the east west divide when it comes to milk and osteoporosis. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that raw milk has virtually disappeared in the west and pasteurisation kills off all the goodness in the milk.

    I read that the rise in lactose intolerance is in line with the prevalence of pasteurisation and lactose intolerant people can happily drink raw milk because it still contains the enzymes required to digest milk properly. I don't know how true that is but I had never heard of anyone being lactose intolerant when I was a kid.

    paul
    My Nan grew up on a dairy farm and always drank raw milk, her bones were like steel! This came after an x-ray when her hand/wrist got trapped in something and nothing was wrong.

    Milk has changed so much, even over recent years. Full fat is 4%....that's not much really is it? I remember when there was actually cream on top the milk and the birds would peck through!

    So pasteurisation and fat removal too??
    I'm succinct - not rude.
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  21. #45
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    Originally Posted by beagoddessmusic
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    Do people really believe this guff? How is my child not eating dead animals remotely linked to child abuse?
    Sadly, yes they do. People become conditioned that the usual way must be the right way and short sighted enough to forget that at various points the usual way has been beating kids with sticks, leaving kids to cry for hours in a pram in the garden, or putting kids to work in mills. People turn on you to externalise the frustration of feeling constrained by the rules, telling themselves that the rules are essential dammit, that's why they have live by them. Examining why rule-breakers get their goat so badly (coz they secretly wanna be one) is far harder to do. Same with all the most passionate knobheads, the famous example being homophobic closet queers.

    I have one self-directed vegetarian kid, two half-hearted-not-really-veggie ones and a firmly omnivorous partner. Because the little vegetarian made that choice herself, aged just 3, and because she stands out even within her own family, I especially seem to get a lot of these knobs. Knobheads that would never challenge a dyed in the wool vegan will take a snap at me, because I seem like an easy target (parenting always is). My standard reply is "she doesn't eat meat no [pause] she doesn't eat brussel sprouts either but that doesn't seem to threaten your world view". Within a few sentences I make a point of saying "meat is not necessary, protein, iron and so on are. Can you name me 3 sources of protein for a vegetarian?". I've never had a knobhead succeed yet. That's the problem, they don't know how it's done, so they assume we can't do it. They should read more. Raising healthy vegetarian kids is easy. Rise above it and love the gorgeous little person you have x

  22. #46
    Heavenly Creature Editor aman's Avatar
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    I really don't want to start this whole debate again as discussing quotes entirely out of context is going to get us nowhere but at no time have I called another member of this forum a "Knobhead" for having a different opinion from myself.

    We all have different beliefs and you can't just go around insulting people just because they do not believe what you believe.

    paul
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  23. #47
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    Originally Posted by aman
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    I really don't want to start this whole debate again as discussing quotes entirely out of context is going to get us nowhere but at no time have I called another member of this forum a "Knobhead" for having a different opinion from myself.

    We all have different beliefs and you can't just go around insulting people just because they do not believe what you believe.

    paul
    I'm really sorry you read it that way, as I was absolutely not intending you or anyone else to think what I said was a slight against anyone on this forum. I apologise if I inadvertently sounded that way.

    I was referring to the unsolicited and intrusive nastiness I get from people I meet. In the last 7 months since my child declared herself veggie... I've had several experiences of cafe staff challenging my parenting if I've asked if something on the kids menu is vegetarian. I've had one junior nursery care worker get the huff with me after my daughter declined the ham snack. I've had more comments from parents in the park/ anywhere you find parents than I care to remember... This is knobheadery. It's not the holding of a different opinion, please do hold an opinion, it's what separates people from sheep... Knobheadery is the putting that opinion up people's noses. Ironically, that's what you thought I was doing in the above post. I really hadn't meant to sound that way. I'm sorry it was read that way. I was just moaning. I was also just trying to express a bit of empathy for how the original post writer felt about being challenged.

    As for forum threads, to be clear, that's not what I'd call unsolicited, if I ask a question or make a statement and you respond, then it's solicited. So again, I totally didn't mean anyone here. I'm sorry.

    Sarah

  24. #48

    that is bs

    I can see why some people may consider it abuse, but that is pure BS. There is nothing wrong with wanting to raise your children healthy. When they are old enough to decide for themselves, nothing is stopping them from trying meat then.


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    Originally Posted by beagoddessmusic
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    I found this little gem in the 101 forum and was suficiently irritated to bring it here:



    Do people really believe this guff? How is my child not eating dead animals remotely linked to child abuse?

    My daughter has never eaten animals, nor will she. To turn it on its head I would say that people that inflict meat on their kids are far more abusive than we are as a family for abstaining. My daughter knows why we do not eat animals and as a result at 5 now chooses to continue that. She is happy and healthy. The kind of logic in the quoted post is about as logical as saying that home education is abusive, or wearing red socks is abusive- it is nonsense.

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