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View Poll Results: How will you vote on EU membership?

Voters
86. You may not vote on this poll
  • Remain

    42 48.84%
  • Leave

    36 41.86%
  • Not allowed to vote

    3 3.49%
  • Choosing not to vote

    5 5.81%
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Thread: The ukh "Remain or Leave?" Poll

  1. #25
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by parrotandcrow
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    The vote rigging has already started.


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    That looks more like incompetence than evidence for a conspiracy.

  2. #26
    Chilling Out
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    Vote stay people ask yourself this , if instead of leaving the eu next weeks vote was to join the eu instead would you all feel the same way ?

  3. #27
    Heavenly Creature
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    We have no real 'protections' under the EU. Before we went into the present mess, workers here had a 5-day, 8-hours-a-day working week. Saturdays you were paid overtime rate, and double-time Sundays. If you wanted it. The choice was yours. I was around then. I was an engineering shop steward. British workers fought for those rights since before the First World War, and finally got them after the Second World War.
    Now the EU has allowed all those regulations to be changed and watered down. It has allowed successive governments in this country to make a 12-hour day a normality, often a compulsory condition that you sign up to on taking a job. Plus the 'We can call you in anytime we want' condition. Plus the zero-hour contract conditions.
    Wages have gone down dramatically in buying power, house and rent prices have gone up completely unbridled, and many people have to work all hours just to keep a rented roof over their heads. All this has happened under the auspices of the EU, so I do not listen to b/s about how the EU has been protecting us; I just look around where I live, and see the circumstances ordinary people struggle under, which we just didn't have back in the 1960's and 1970's.

    If the EU has been 'protecting' us, how has all this downslide been allowed to happen? The EU has allowed government fraud and manipulation of the masses to an extent hitherto unknown, starting with Thatcher and going downhill ever since, through sleazy Major and Blair, and Brown, and down to Cameron and the present fascist crew.
    All this has happened under the auspices of the EU.

    Twice the Fatherland and its bankers have tried to take Europe by force, and twice they have failed. But to form a European Federation by economic means is another way of doing it. Making sure that everyone thinks they are contributing, of course, wherehas in fact they are being told what to do, and regulated at every step. And dealing with anyone that doesn't toe the line, like Greece, very severely.

    The EU as it is now will eventually fall apart, whether we stay in or come out, because it is based on greed and manipulation, not upon a democratic process, and people in many of its poorer member states are beginning to realise this.
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  4. #28
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by boneheaddread
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    Vote stay people ask yourself this , if instead of leaving the eu next weeks vote was to join the eu instead would you all feel the same way ?
    Absolutely
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  5. #29

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    Originally Posted by boneheaddread
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    Vote stay people ask yourself this , if instead of leaving the eu next weeks vote was to join the eu instead would you all feel the same way ?
    Oh, yes, I see myself as European before British, I speak 3 languages, can muddle through a couple of others, have lived and worked in half of the western countries, visited most of the rest. I have spend over half my life living in mainland Europe and I like it as it is just fine.

    Perfect? not at all,

    Besides, while I understand the Brexit arguments, I reckons you will all be voting for something you will never get under the Tories, they will Carr on fucking up the country, but now you will be even more trapped than before.

  6. #30

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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    We have no real 'protections' under the EU. Before we went into the present mess, workers here had a 5-day, 8-hours-a-day working week. Saturdays you were paid overtime rate, and double-time Sundays. If you wanted it. The choice was yours. I was around then. I was an engineering shop steward. British workers fought for those rights since before the First World War, and finally got them after the Second World War.
    Now the EU has allowed all those regulations to be changed and watered down. It has allowed successive governments in this country to make a 12-hour day a normality, often a compulsory condition that you sign up to on taking a job. Plus the 'We can call you in anytime we want' condition. Plus the zero-hour contract conditions.
    Wages have gone down dramatically in buying power, house and rent prices have gone up completely unbridled, and many people have to work all hours just to keep a rented roof over their heads. All this has happened under the auspices of the EU, so I do not listen to b/s about how the EU has been protecting us; I just look around where I live, and see the circumstances ordinary people struggle under, which we just didn't have back in the 1960's and 1970's.

    If the EU has been 'protecting' us, how has all this downslide been allowed to happen? The EU has allowed government fraud and manipulation of the masses to an extent hitherto unknown, starting with Thatcher and going downhill ever since, through sleazy Major and Blair, and Brown, and down to Cameron and the present fascist crew.
    All this has happened under the auspices of the EU
    While you might be right, but the EU does temper a lot of the stupidity of the tories, and leaving the EU will not help to right the wrongs this counties government is doing to you.

    France has a 35 hour week, overtime for extra hours.

    Besides, that is not really the goal of the EU, where the EU stands out is using European wide laws to protect everyone, when was the last time you heard bout acid rain for example, it was in the news weekly when I was growing up, and the EU environmental laws are pretty much the only reason we no longer have it.

    Don't blame the EU for all your ills, most of them are caused by britains own government.
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  7. #31
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    I am swaying towards leave, but whats really got my goat is that fracking at the moment has to be granted with an eu license, and most of the eu has banned fracking, so if we leave we might find fracking going on unregualated to mr cameron an his cronies new rules banged through parliament.

    I like the thought of independence.

    I dont like the thought of baffoons like boris and farage leading the way
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  8. #32
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    I still can't stop thinking that four or five months ago. Our government was seriously threatening to withdraw from the EU if we couldn't secure our borders ( control imagination and benefits + more choice (self governing) over new legislation etc). There was NO mention of all this pending disaster, doom and gloom, should we have withdrawn from the EU. We are being frightened into voting to stay in. Bullshitted by the stay in crowd. Like fearful mugs we are swallowing the propaganda.
    If 10% of these (real) social, economic worries were pending on the leaving of the EU, Cameron and his crew would have had that to disclose to the electorate Incase his proposals were not met after consultations.

    Nothing, absolutely nothing was mentioned and all to save a few million on the social security and housing bill from immigrants, migrants coming to the UK. Nothing was announced to those ex-pats living out retirement in Spain etc. nothing said, only We will push to leave the EU. A drop in our budget and yet well worth threatening to leave the EU for.
    It just doesn't make sense.
    If all this forecast doom and gloom was even likely a few months back. The government would have been well aware of it.
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  9. #33
    Heavenly Creature
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    "Don't blame the EU for all your ills, most of them are caused by britains own government".

    You have completely missed the point.The point is that the EU has allowed the British government to behave in this manner, so how the hell do you think it is protecting us? Certainly the French won't be pushed around in the same manner, but you can't deny that the French government is constantly trying it on, trying to beat down workers rights and values. And of course the EU is right behind the French government in doing so, just as it was and is behind the same things done by the British government.
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  10. #34
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    You have completely missed the point.The point is that the EU has allowed the British government to behave in this manner, so how the hell do you think it is protecting us?
    Because, in spite of most people's ideas about the subject, Britain still has sovereignty over many of its domestic affairs unless they affect the other member states or are a direct contravention of human rights.

    Most of the breakdown of the welfare state and our union rights are a reflection of the general stupidity of the electorate caused by voting tory, and not because of the European Union. It's like voting Tory, getting a Tory government and then blaming Brussels for it.

    Still, there was a time when working class families lived 15 to a room, kids worked down mines and workhouses were the only option if you ended up destitute. Social change has been slow in coming, it's always being resisted and eroded, and there was never any socialist utopia that existed prior to the inception of the common market.
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  11. #35
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    So you have to admit that the EU has not been protecting us from our own wicked governments? So why do 'Remain' people always harp on about the way the EU is protecting us? They have either been protecting us, or they have not.
    And it is evident that they have not. Otherwise we would not be in the mess we are in.

    Quite right about massive improved social change. Brought about here by British people, not by the EU. Now being taken away by the tories under the auspices of the EU. There has never been a socialist utopia in the UK, but we were getting a bit closer to it in the 1960's and the 1970's, that I can tell you from personal experience. We joined the EU and things have been going downhill ever since, so far as pay and hours and working conditions are concerned. We are fast returning to Mrs Thatcher's 'Victorian values', when the social conditions you correctly speak of existed, before British people, mostly working people, fought their way out of them.

  12. #36
    Shed Junkie alices wonderland's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Languid Virago
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    EU environmental laws are pretty much the only reason we no longer have it.
    Are you seriously telling us, a) we no longer have acid rain pollution?
    B) that EU legislation has put a stop to it or even come close to reducing it?

    Britain is very fortunate to be located where it is in the world. Most of the pollution from Eastern Europe stays in Europe or goes North, East, with the prevailing winds and all except a tiny amount produced from France, Portugal, Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland effects Britain as it is then blown North East over Europe. Scotland is suffering from the accumulation, build up of acid rain pollution in its fragile soils and it is increasingly concentrating in the water courses in Scotland as a result in deforestation caused by mainly acid rain and harvesting timber. No longer being trapped in the forest soils and root systems, leached out of the peat and into streams daily. We are just at the start of a huge loss of habitat because of acid rain. Pine forests have been largely tolerant of high acid levels, now these are failing and releasing more pollution, which will continue the knock on effect.
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  13. #37
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by alices wonderland
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    Are you seriously telling us, a) we no longer have acid rain pollution?
    B) that EU legislation has put a stop to it or even come close to reducing it?
    These are relevant...

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    (1998 article)



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    (2012 article)
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  14. #38
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    So you have to admit that the EU has not been protecting us from our own wicked governments? So why do 'Remain' people always harp on about the way the EU is protecting us? They have either been protecting us, or they have not.
    General
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    has been written into (or adapted) into UK law in order to comply with membership agreements, including parts of the following:


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    The
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    while not a part of EU law in itself, is still used in determining legislation - and considering the Tories want to do away with the human rights act, then god only knows where that might take us... when the likes of Boris Johnson (failed every question in an IQ test) and Nigel Farage (total xenophobic racist) make a fuss about regulations holding back business, there's every chance they're referring to a lot of the above.
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  15. #39
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    It's no good quoting directives that don't actually prevent the tories - or New Labour - from worsening the conditions of working people. The damage has been done despite those directives, or in some ways, perhaps because of them. Because those directives give the impression that they are doing a whole lot of good, when in actual fact some are only skimming the surface of things, and not banning the really gross changes in employment laws, benefits, and the general kicking the hell out of the poorer classes that we are seeing today.
    Show me the directive where it says you have to pay an employee a reasonable decent working wage.
    Show me the directive where it says you can't employ someone on zero-hour contract.
    Show me the directive where it says you must pay people overtime for anything longer than an eight-hour day.
    Show me the directive where it says you cannot employ people for more than 48 hours a week while there are other people out of jobs.

    Even some of the things contained in those directives can be pretty stupid, because they are resulting in a dumbing-down of people's personal appreciation of danger and the way to deal with it. Some of the H&S stuff is a good case in point. It's no good having H&S regulations that are not enforced, and I've seen EU H&S regs and laws broken almost as a matter of course. The case is that a big firm can ignore and pay the fine if something happens. A small firm justs declares bankruptcy, and opens up under a new name a few weeks later. Now if the directors of either class of firm got five years hard labour by statute, then that would see the laws enforced a whole lot more closely.
    So the EU can bring out safety laws, but often they don't work because they can't be enforced, so they just get people angry. And as for the silly ones, well, we soon won't be allowed to wire up a 230v plug ourselves, in case we get it badly wrong, and experience Darwinian selection in action.

    The European Convention on Human Rights has seen some strange offspring, and certainly itself deserves a common-sense critical evaluation. Logic is not always its strongest point, and some of the EU appendages built upon the ECHR lack logic completely, when viewed by common-sense. So it would be good to see those go, as a start, before we move onto more fundamental issues.

  16. #40
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    It's no good quoting directives that don't actually prevent the tories - or New Labour - from worsening the conditions of working people..
    Because it's not the job of the European Union to get rid of the Tories, or any British Government. That's down to the electorate and their typically lower than average intelligence.

    Anyway, because I'm feeling too lazy/tired to look up specifics, here's a
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    - which pretty much concludes that, while the EU has largely influenced UK law, it would be unlikely to change much because of any future trade agreements. I disagree, because if the people vote to leave I doubt any trade agreement will come easily or readily and we'll be up shit creek without a paddle ... it'll make current austerity measures look like a day at the seaside.

    I totally disagree about the convention on human rights and think it's one of the best pieces of international legislation that exists. Yes abuses happen and loopholes are often tried - but that applies to every law out there.
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  17. #41
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    On the balance of everything I've read about brexit, it just seems total lunacy to leave, especially considering the way the pound has dropped in value since campaigning began. I'm hoping that, should Brexit go ahead, parliament veto it from passing the commons.

    The whole brexit campaign seems like it belongs in the domain of jingoism, nostalgia and harking back to the good 'ol days of Blighty during the empire and how "things were better before the war". The Nigel Farage model of a fag and a pint while complaining about Johnny Foreigner.

    The expression "Like turkeys voting for Christmas" has never seemed more apt.

    This is a great article:


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  18. #42
    Transcending stinkypete's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    We have no real 'protections' under the EU. Before we went into the present mess, workers here had a 5-day, 8-hours-a-day working week. Saturdays you were paid overtime rate, and double-time Sundays. If you wanted it. The choice was yours. I was around then. I was an engineering shop steward. British workers fought for those rights since before the First World War, and finally got them after the Second World War.
    Now the EU has allowed all those regulations to be changed and watered down. It has allowed successive governments in this country to make a 12-hour day a normality, often a compulsory condition that you sign up to on taking a job. Plus the 'We can call you in anytime we want' condition. Plus the zero-hour contract conditions.
    Wages have gone down dramatically in buying power, house and rent prices have gone up completely unbridled, and many people have to work all hours just to keep a rented roof over their heads. All this has happened under the auspices of the EU, so I do not listen to b/s about how the EU has been protecting us; I just look around where I live, and see the circumstances ordinary people struggle under, which we just didn't have back in the 1960's and 1970's.

    If the EU has been 'protecting' us, how has all this downslide been allowed to happen? The EU has allowed government fraud and manipulation of the masses to an extent hitherto unknown, starting with Thatcher and going downhill ever since, through sleazy Major and Blair, and Brown, and down to Cameron and the present fascist crew.
    All this has happened under the auspices of the EU.

    Twice the Fatherland and its bankers have tried to take Europe by force, and twice they have failed. But to form a European Federation by economic means is another way of doing it. Making sure that everyone thinks they are contributing, of course, wherehas in fact they are being told what to do, and regulated at every step. And dealing with anyone that doesn't toe the line, like Greece, very severely.

    The EU as it is now will eventually fall apart, whether we stay in or come out, because it is based on greed and manipulation, not upon a democratic process, and people in many of its poorer member states are beginning to realise this.
    That about sums it up and all true mate.
    Live LIVELIFELOVE

  19. #43
    Transcending stinkypete's Avatar
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    TESTICLES

    Sorry this not aimed at anybody in particular but
    ffs ive never heard the sound of so many pairs of balls retreating back to where they came from,
    its like a huge SSSSHUCKsort of noise which grows in volume every time another pair get sshucked in.

    The eu /s fundemental reasons for existing have not changed since it was first discussed,and that is something worth worrying about, its not freedom its not a lifetime free from the horrors of war or hardship,
    The eu is so wonderfull and fluffy and democratic and principled that it wants an army so it can export its values and
    principles globally ...............................
    Live LIVELIFELOVE

  20. #44
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    Originally Posted by Paul
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    These are relevant...

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    (2012 article)
    Replacing coal fired power stations in France with nuclear power stations, was not a victory for the EU or Thatcher. You can't say 90% of the reduced level is down to something the EU did. England wasn't Forced to fit scrubbers into the chimneys of coal fuelled power stations in Britain. It was Britain who suggested it, adopted it and was doing it well before if became a mandate for EU reg. So campaigners, scientists, our then Government reacted to the very real shock/threat of loosing our upland Forests. Not the EU. They were not seeing the effects of their acid rain further north East on the vast tundra and old Soviet Union states.
    If reducing acid rain by replacing the old power stations with nuclear power stations counts. Then how the fuck is that a win for staying in the EU and seen as a good result for Britain?

  21. #45
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Nuclear energy is a whole point in itself, but we still have a 90% reduction in acid rain, which was the pertinent point mentioned by LV.

    Being a part of the European Union isn't just about what Britain can take from it, it's also what it can contribute - if we've managed to influence the rest of Europe on matters of pollution, the environment, labour rights etc. then surely that's a good thing ... and where they've influenced our laws, then that also is a good thing, no?


    I guess most people have made their minds up already, and I'm quite prepared to eat my words if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am - I honestly believe this is going to be the biggest act of national self-sabotage ever - like lemmings jumping off a cliff with nothing at the bottom to land on.

    When I look around the people I know, I've noticed that, as a general (but not strict) rule, older people (40+) tend to lean more towards leaving and younger people are more inclined to want to remain. Also, people who live in more urban areas tend to lean more towards remaining too - the majority of the leave camp seem to live more rurally. I wonder why this is.

    If we do leave, then I seriously hope I'm wrong, because if I'm right we really will be fucked.

  22. #46
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    I`m gonna vote stay even though it pains me to do what Cameron wants. I can`t justify voting to leave without doing a lot more research on the full implications of this and I don`t have the energy for it at the minute. Things are bad now but am scared they could get a whole lot worse..
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  23. #47
    Love's the shire Offgrid hero's Avatar
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    I've not heard anything about acid rain in many a moon, it used to be mentioned all the time I take it that's a success story.
    just a simple guy

  24. #48
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    Originally Posted by Offgrid hero
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    I've not heard anything about acid rain in many a moon, it used to be mentioned all the time I take it that's a success story.
    yes it's a success story, not unlike AIDS really. At first, we didn't know how bad it was, how destructive it could be and if there was anything we could do about it. Over the years the fears became reality, the costs absorbed and people worried obout the next big thing. Ozone depletion and same sex marriage. Britains acid rain predicted threats diminished with the introduction of Smokeless zones, introduced to curb the effects of smog in towns and cities. This led to a move to alternative heating, namely gas and electric.
    Closure of many coal mines throughout the country ment fewer communities having access to cheaper coal. A countrywide halt on building new coal fired power stations, in favour of nuclear power stations. Importing electricity under the sea from other countries, allowed foreign nuclear power stations to gain a foot hold in the energy market.
    Imports of poor quality coal from Russia increased. Resulting in further improvements to scrubbers to facilitate British power station using imported coal.
    Yes a reduction in local acid rain, due to the loss of our British coal industry and its associated communities. Increased imports of nuclear generated energy from our European neighbours. Acid rain fall over Britain is down from back then in the 1960/70's. However, we still produce almost the same amount of pollution from fossil fuel energy generation, leading to acid rain in other parts of the world, from our dwindling coal fired power stations that we did at the end of the 1980's Because once up the chimney its blown away to become someone else's problem, we no longer need to hear about it. Instead we focus on Countries like China who continue to pump out pollution from coal burning into the atmosphere, contributing like us to the worlds acid rain.

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