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View Poll Results: How will you vote on EU membership?

Voters
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  • Remain

    42 48.84%
  • Leave

    36 41.86%
  • Not allowed to vote

    3 3.49%
  • Choosing not to vote

    5 5.81%
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Thread: The ukh "Remain or Leave?" Poll

  1. #49
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    cheap labour benefits who....... ?

    not me or mine

  2. #50
    Not Quite a Noobie Mrpinkeye's Avatar
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    Leave. Let's try something different instead of watching the world go to poop with the same old rubbish

  3. #51
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    The mps putting the case forward are both awful, ooh stay in thats endorsed by cameron and osbourne leave and you get a welcomed salute from farage, boris and gove and everyine loves how gove was brilliant at handling education.

    Blue in bl3ue more like poo on poo.

    Oh god and gordon brown and ed milliband is endorsing stay in. there all bloody useless people who dont speak to me,

    I am sick of politics, after the fracking thing was thrown out by my council then overuled by westminster democracy died.
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  4. #52
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Has anyone noticed how mobile phone roaming costs are cheaper in Europe, or how we can drive without needing a green card, or how we don't need to stop at borders anymore as we drive across the continent?

    What about that sudden appearance of 2 year warranties on electronic goods, or how allergens are more clearly marked on food packaging?

    What about (and this is pertinent to me) that veganism is accepted as a "deeply held belief" thus forcing statutory organisations (such as hospitals and prisons) to provide alternatives to animal products (including protective clothing).

    Yup, all because of the EU...

  5. #53
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    You are right, Gee. They are mostly shyte at the top on both sides of the in-out debate.
    It feels like you have to vote for one lot of greedy ruthless people against another lot of greedy ruthless people, so I can understand people not wanting to vote at all.

    Personally, when all is said and done, I don't think there is even a strong chance of us leaving, much as I'd like that.
    The establishment, or most of it, stands to lose far too much of its huge monetary investments in the European corporate state. A state that will gradually turn into a corporate fascist state, under the guise of 'security' europewide. We won't leave because, if our present government thinks there is a decent chance that enough will vote to make us leave, they will just engage in dirty tricks to 'lose' masses of those votes, and ensure they stay in by a narrow but firm majority. I strongly suspect this happened in the last general elections here, where the pollsters predicted a quite different result from that which came to pass.

    We may even be witnessing a totally false and manipulated scenario, right in front of us. A complete mockup of a referendum, with the result known beforehand, but done to satisfy the 'democratic' process, and make us all think we really have a say.

    Just look at who the tories have dreamed up to put on their 'leave' side - Boris and Gove, two politicians many sensible people would refuse to vote for, even if they wanted out. Farage up there too, probably the only genuine 'out' article, but not loved by many. Not a very impressive line-up, is it, really?

    So, and I hope I'm wrong, I'd say there is no real chance of us leaving. It's not democracy in action, it's a complete sham.
    I shall be voting to leave, but will my vote be counted? That's another matter.
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  6. #54
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    Let's face it, the EU will fall apart with or without us. We can leave now, or go down with the ship.

    When the EU was thought up (not the Common Market) there were a few first world countries and a couple of less well off that were supported in the EU.

    In coming years, there will be more, less well off countries joining. We will be expected to support them too, and they won't be putting anything in, maybe they won't ever be able to.
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  7. #55
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    We may even be witnessing a totally false and manipulated scenario, right in front of us. A complete mockup of a referendum, with the result known beforehand, but done to satisfy the 'democratic' process, and make us all think we really have a say.
    This has been something that's been niggling at me from the get-go of this in/out "opportunity".
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  8. #56
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    Glad I'm not alone in thinking this! Politicians are usually good actors, so it's fairly easy to convince many people that this is a serious matter, especially when they start shouting at each other. But it could be, and probably is, all play-acting.
    Like the solicitors and QCs who stridently score points off each other in court, then go and have a drink together afterwards, best of mates, and have a laugh about what a punt the defendant is.

  9. #57
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    I'm voting remain. It seems ludicrous to me to vote away our right to live, work, health care anywhere in Europe that we choose to live as many of our countryman have already done so.
    Not only are you voting away your rights, but your children and your grandchildren right to free movement.
    I was hoping to retire to Spain within a few years a Brexit will seriously scupper my plans.
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  10. #58
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    We may even be witnessing a totally false and manipulated scenario, right in front of us. A complete mockup of a referendum, with the result known beforehand, but done to satisfy the 'democratic' process, and make us all think we really have a say.
    I don't think the government are competent enough to manage this. Seriously, it would take hundreds of people to pull this off and a whole heap of planning in terms of distribution and evidence hiding ... plus the guarantee that there there won't ever be a single whistleblower left to tell the tale.

  11. #59
    Transcending Ecobob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    We may even be witnessing a totally false and manipulated scenario, right in front of us. A complete mockup of a referendum, with the result known beforehand, but done to satisfy the 'democratic' process, and make us all think we really have a say.
    Or are we being offered different sides of the same coin? the choice may be there but the value still the same ?
    Will anything really be any different either way I wonder?

    It did strike me as somewhat alarming that Cameron and Boris have opposite stances on this, or is that just a fallback so if we exit then Boris will take over as PM?

    Personally I think we would be better off out (in an ideal world) as it is a corrupt system. It also seems that other countries are leaning the same way, France are also after a refferendum .
    Unfortunately though we don't live in an ideal world and the money saved from exiting would not be wisely spent on things that matter like health and education, both of which are in desperate need of sorting out.

    My 2p worth anyway.
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  12. #60
    Evolving slowly beadyjean's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul
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    When I look around the people I know, I've noticed that, as a general (but not strict) rule, older people (40+) tend to lean more towards leaving and younger people are more inclined to want to remain. Also, people who live in more urban areas tend to lean more towards remaining too - the majority of the leave camp seem to live more rurally. I wonder why this is.
    Well - at 67, I'm certainly not one of those of 40+ people that leans towards leaving. It may also be relevant that I've not only lived in a very rural backwater of France for the past 13 years but also worked here for 6 years of those years till retirement. I couldn't have done that without the free movement policy of the EU. With French, German and Irish ancestry, I have always considered myself to be not only English, but also European - and I'm proud to be the result of such a mix of cultures. I hope that I have inherited some of the best traits off all of them - aestheticism and style from the French, ingenuity, perspicacity and invention from the Germans and adaptability, humour and sociability from the Irish. Plus that ancestral mix came, in the most part, from immigrants to England over the years. The people that are shouting the loudest about exiting from this, admittedly poorly run and in need of reform, club of the nations of Europe, are those that have mostly never dared to venture further than their own shores (or at most a few package holidays), let alone discover what intellectual and cultural riches might lie beyond their doorsteps. Surely, the best way forward is to guarantee those options for the generations to come, rather than to promote isolationism? A damaged vehicle has always a chance of getting repaired, but sending it to the breaker's is a step there is no coming back from. For goodness sake, people.... take the time to REALLY research the pro's and the cons of what the EU offers (not just swallowing the self-serving rhetoric that is being blasted from the newspapers and those that have their OWN selfish goals as a priority) and then make an informed decision. Is that too much to expect? As Paul writes (I also made a similar comparison in a post on my FB homepage) - have so many people become lemmings rushing to their own destruction, with no thought for generations to come?
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  13. #61
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    Originally Posted by Paul
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    I don't think the government are competent enough to manage this. Seriously, it would take hundreds of people to pull this off and a whole heap of planning in terms of distribution and evidence hiding ... plus the guarantee that there there won't ever be a single whistleblower left to tell the tale.
    I know what you mean, but the government itself doesn't need to be competent. That's what they have their secret services for. You don't go whistle-blowing after those guys have had a little talk with you.
    And if you did make a move toward getting your whistle out, well around 250,000 to 275,000 people go missing in Britain every year, so do you think a few more would be noticed?

  14. #62
    What is the point in voting when it won't make any difference. I find it really disturbing that so many people don't know 'the story', not his story or her story - I mean real stuff, not the selective crap that schools brainwash the kid with, or what the nanny state pumps out.
    The reason we won't be coming out is that those who own the bank of England, federal reserve, and the other main five capitalist banks do not have it in their plans for UK to leave ecc, eu, or whatever they call it these days. The Story of finance is mostly about the the story of war. The Ministry of Defence is about War. Tories and Labour and the Whigs are a variation of the same thing, etc which is why there is no point in voting in general election, etc.
    Next comes the story of accounting and the story of law.
    Then join that up with the 'right of the individual' to arm self.
    Full circle.

  15. #63
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    I'm voting to remain. Paul has made many of the points that are uncomfortable for Brexit believers, but valid none-the-less.
    EU Regs don't force us to do things (we retain Sovereignty) but generally we are good at complying and we have taken the best bits.

    Brexit campaigners focus before the mad Xenophobia started was on de-regulation (yes I'm going back a good long way) and the reason for that was it was started by businesses who want freedom to not have to comply with these pesky EU regs stopping them making Maxxx profit. The one that stuck out for me last week was the Phone re-seller complaining that his profits are going to be hit when roaming charges are cut because he gets a cut from Roaming charges for every call his customers make abroad!

    We could have decent employment T's and C's independently but do you really think things would not go back massively with the current shower, (and I'm old enough to remember employment rights pre EU which weren't all rosie!).
    The UK only gave married women the right to claim benefits due to challenge to EU court of human rights in 1983 before that only married men could claim. That's one small specific example, but it is typical of the small unspoken of benefits of being in the EU that we won't see until we lose them.

    Financially even if the lies being told about the cost of being accounted for the things we get back like research and grants to deprived communities (which they don't) - do you think for one minute that those things would be maintained by the even further right replacement for Cameron's crew that would take over? At the moment the money we pay is re-distributed to good use mostly by us. Yes we do put some into wider European causes but the Remain campaign is doing a really pants job IMO of saying how the money is spent.
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  16. #64
    Shed Junkie alices wonderland's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by shamrockhead
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    What is the point in voting when it won't make any difference. I find it really disturbing that so many people don't know 'the story', not his story or her story - I mean real stuff, not the selective crap that schools brainwash the kid with, or what the nanny state pumps out.
    The reason we won't be coming out is that those who own the bank of England, federal reserve, and the other main five capitalist banks do not have it in their plans for UK to leave ecc, eu, or whatever they call it these days. The Story of finance is mostly about the the story of war. The Ministry of Defence is about War. Tories and Labour and the Whigs are a variation of the same thing, etc which is why there is no point in voting in general election, etc.
    Next comes the story of accounting and the story of law.
    Then join that up with the 'right of the individual' to arm self.
    Full circle.
    what utter bollox, another for the pill Johnny. " Jesus Fred, there coming thick and fast, is it still in the water supply?" Na Jonny, "You can tell those who believed in Santa until secondary school!" Scared for life I tell yeh, scared for life.

  17. #65
    Shed Junkie alices wonderland's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sirenity
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    I'm voting to remain. Paul has made many of the points that are uncomfortable for Brexit believers, but valid none-the-less.
    EU Regs don't force us to do things (we retain Sovereignty) but generally we are good at complying and we have taken the best bits.

    Brexit campaigners focus before the mad Xenophobia started was on de-regulation (yes I'm going back a good long way) and the reason for that was it was started by businesses who want freedom to not have to comply with these pesky EU regs stopping them making Maxxx profit. The one that stuck out for me last week was the Phone re-seller complaining that his profits are going to be hit when roaming charges are cut because he gets a cut from Roaming charges for every call his customers make abroad!

    We could have decent employment T's and C's independently but do you really think things would not go back massively with the current shower, (and I'm old enough to remember employment rights pre EU which weren't all rosie!).
    The UK only gave married women the right to claim benefits due to challenge to EU court of human rights in 1983 before that only married men could claim. That's one small specific example, but it is typical of the small unspoken of benefits of being in the EU that we won't see until we lose them.

    Financially even if the lies being told about the cost of being accounted for the things we get back like research and grants to deprived communities (which they don't) - do you think for one minute that those things would be maintained by the even further right replacement for Cameron's crew that would take over? At the moment the money we pay is re-distributed to good use mostly by us. Yes we do put some into wider European causes but the Remain campaign is doing a really pants job IMO of saying how the money is spent.
    Married women rights to claim benefits? Some of us would gladly let you stand in line every fortnight, what the fk, think a mans pride is dinted by letting the missus sign on? You don't know how lucky you was to be spared the indignity of standing inline and then been told infront of other strangers, "Your late, too late."

    Gypsy blokes would prefer the women to drink in the other bar, or stay back at camp, looking after the little'ns. You talk about change and benefits. I live in a tent and pay no rent, but the EU won't give me a place to live.

    You are now sold on the idea of EU because of one persons views on roaming charge capping!
    You have no faith in this government like millions of others, but you lack the vision and balls to stand up and fight for change. You prefer to hand power to the stick insects feeding higher up the Euro tree, while this government rounds you up for service.

    What is clear, we deserve to be sent back to the dark ages so more people open their eyes for once and realise. You own the day. You make the difference. But if you fail to see or fear the dark. Your stuck with what your given, not very much as it happens after tax.

  18. #66
    Radiant Being wurzel's Avatar
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    Remain!! already voted by post.
    Never judge someone by the opinion of others.
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  19. #67

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    Originally Posted by alices wonderland
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    what utter bollox, another for the pill Johnny. " Jesus Fred, there coming thick and fast, is it still in the water supply?" Na Jonny, "You can tell those who believed in Santa until secondary school!" Scared for life I tell yeh, scared for life.
    Your vote like mine counts for f/a. Why would those with the power to control the Fed Res, BoE, etc give a toss what a bunch of plebs think. We are not that important. Wake up boy. Duh.....

  20. #68
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    I'll make a single reply Alices Wonderland, as I welcome the challenge to my position, but recognise that you and I will never reach a consensus.
    You said
    "You don't know how lucky you was to be spared the indignity of standing inline"
    Instead I felt the indignity and desperate fear of feeding my baby on begged scraps as I had no money from my husband (not his fault he was a student cut off by his rich parents for our sins of becoming parents ourselves).
    I cried non-stop for hours the day that brave woman's challenge was upheld. Compared to that fear, standing inline was a breeze, no matter how much 'they' gave me a hard time. There were no food banks in those days and freeganism was my only choice for my child's survival.


    "You are now sold on the idea of EU because of one persons views on roaming charge capping!"
    What?! It was an example not my reason for my views.

    "You have no faith in this government like millions of others"
    I have huge faith in Democratic Government even those I dis-approve of almost absolutely like this bunch ...

    "you lack the vision and balls to stand up and fight for change."
    you have no idea the scope of my vision or the size of my balls which, when it comes to standing up and fighting for change, would make many a well hung man wince in pain for the thought of theirs being that big. Trust me I have (and use) both in abundance.

    "You prefer to hand power to the stick insects feeding higher up the Euro tree, while this government rounds you up for service."
    No - I appreciate the checks and balances both of an upper house and of international law and regulation. I like that we have been instrumental in many of our neighbours adopting some of our best practices as Paul has outlined so well - and that we have, even unwillingly, been brought to the table on some of the better practices of other nations.

    Not all is good in the Euro garden - but life is made up of compromises not absolutes and my thorough detailed analysis, based on considerable reviewed evidence over many years; leads me to conclude that most working class people are better off within Europe. Yes I acknowledge that the pressure on wages hasn't been helped by free market economics combined with Euro expansion but that's fixable without throwing the baby out with the bath water. Yes I acknowledge that Euro Commissioners and MP's expenses are almost as corrupt as ours, but we did't have a revolution because our MPs were scamming the system, we changed the rules (not enough yet) and took them to court where possible.

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  21. #69
    Out - we can go alone and put a stop to all this globalisation....

  22. #70
    Radiant Being wurzel's Avatar
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    Here is a view of it all from Norway's PM.


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    Never judge someone by the opinion of others.

  23. #71
    Remain, but I have been away for so long I don't get to vote (25+ years!!).

    I don't like the way the Brexit lot are using deceptive and in some cases downright untrue arguments to attract xenophobes to their cause. That sort of thing never ends well.

  24. #72
    Spot on van woman..This is so true...The theatre is always showing cinderella it's just the actors who's faces are in the spotlight that change

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