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View Poll Results: How will you vote on EU membership?

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  • Remain

    42 48.84%
  • Leave

    36 41.86%
  • Not allowed to vote

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  • Choosing not to vote

    5 5.81%
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Thread: The ukh "Remain or Leave?" Poll

  1. #985
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    The decision is to leave, but in the distant future when all the baby boomers have passed away from old age, we will probably end up back in
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    Fortunately, said with only a small amount of tongue in cheek, by then you Remainers might have seen the error of your ways and, if not, well many of the Brexiteers won't be around to watch you make fools of yourselves.
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    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

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  2. #986
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red Dragon
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    Fortunately, said with only a small amount of tongue in cheek, by then you Remainers might have seen the error of your ways and, if not, well many of the Brexiteers won't be around to watch you make fools of yourselves.
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    I doubt it very much, I think the way forward is forming even closer ties with Europe and integrating into Europe, look at how the power structure of the world is changing with Juggernauts such as Russia and China becoming more vocal, the only way to keep balance is by making sure we have a big enough voice and a big chunk of that comes from being part of the European union. If the EU broke up, Russia for instance would have a free pass to do more than just take over small territories like they did with the Crimea. This is not the 50s and 60s anymore where the US calls the shots around the world and other countries just listen, we need closer ties now more than ever.
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  3. #987
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    "closer ties" does not mean RULED BY!! the EU is now showing its true colours, all the threats and bad feelings are coming to the fore.
    if you think the EU is so wonderful then go and live there, unfortunately you are so young you don't know any time when things were different, I do and I know which I prefer.
    I just hope when its all done and dusted we can get rid of this stupid "United Kingdom" tag....especially if Scotland does go its own way, which at the moment seems unlikely, and go back to being GREAT Britain once more.

  4. #988
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    I doubt it very much, I think the way forward is forming even closer ties with Europe and integrating into Europe, look at how the power structure of the world is changing with Juggernauts such as Russia and China becoming more vocal, the only way to keep balance is by making sure we have a big enough voice and a big chunk of that comes from being part of the European union. If the EU broke up, Russia for instance would have a free pass to do more than just take over small territories like they did with the Crimea. This is not the 50s and 60s anymore where the US calls the shots around the world and other countries just listen, we need closer ties now more than ever.
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    Closer ties is one thing but what the EU is aiming to do is what you quote Russia doing to Crimea, except doing it without guns and tanks!

    A Common Market is 100% a great idea a Federated Europe is not.
    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

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  5. #989
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    Hagrid, you and I are going to have to stop writing the same stuff or people will think we're a couple. Shall we set up a schedule for replying to this thread?????????
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    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

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  6. #990
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    Originally Posted by Red Dragon
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    Hagrid, you and I are going to have to stop writing the same stuff or people will think we're a couple. Shall we set up a schedule for replying to this thread?????????
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    I cant help it if we think alike mate!
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  7. #991
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    "closer ties" does not mean RULED BY!! the EU is now showing its true colours, all the threats and bad feelings are coming to the fore.
    if you think the EU is so wonderful then go and live there, unfortunately you are so young you don't know any time when things were different, I do and I know which I prefer.
    I just hope when its all done and dusted we can get rid of this stupid "United Kingdom" tag....especially if Scotland does go its own way, which at the moment seems unlikely, and go back to being GREAT Britain once more.
    Scotland will most likely go their own way especially if the PM keeps ignoring them, good luck to Scotland, will be hard for them at the start, but if they were to join the EU they might even end up being the new tiger economy like Ireland was. As for the 'how things used to be', go back to the 50s for instance and most people were racist, woman's rights were non existent, homophobia was rife, Britain was clinging on to what was left of its crumbling empire, in which it robbed the lands it colonized, treated the indigenous people like krap and oppressed them, and then celebrated it all with 'Empire day'. Let's just call ourselves Britain for now and then in 50 years we will review our actions and then decide whether we are great or not.
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  8. #992
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    The island Great Britain is the largest of the British Isles, hence it is called Great(which originally meant large).
    Nowt to do with it ever being called Great in the political sense
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  9. #993
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    Originally Posted by Uncle jhad
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    The island Great Britain is the largest of the British Isles, hence it is called Great(which originally meant large).
    Nowt to do with it ever being called Great in the political sense
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    That I can accept, as a country we do have a dark political history especially with the British empire and not to mention the first recorded use of concentration camps being used by the British during the Boer war, we were once a nasty little nation.
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  10. #994
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    That I can accept, as a country we do have a dark political history especially with the British empire and not to mention the first recorded use of concentration camps being used by the British during the Boer war, we were once a nasty little nation.
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    Might be the first recorded use of the phrase concentration camp and so I offer that not all battles and wars saw the ransoming of knights and the slaughter of the common soldier/(wo)man and thus, whilst not being called concentration camps, there were certainly camps where the common soldiers/(wo)men were concentrated so that they didn't cause problems for the invaders.

    Nasty little country also a maybe as we had some very good company when it came to empire building aspirations. The Spanish were, in my opinion, worse than most when you consider what they did in South America in their expansionist search for land and gold. Portugal, France, Holland and Italy were also founder members of that exclusive expansionist club.

    Back to the topic now.
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  11. #995
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    and don't put todays 21st century values on something that happened decades or even centuries ago, that was then, this is now.

  12. #996
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    and don't put todays 21st century values on something that happened decades or even centuries ago, that was then, this is now.
    Yet people still go on about the 2nd ww? Anyway, my comment was simply that the Great, when applied to Britain, describes the size of the island, and no more
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  13. #997
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    Originally Posted by Uncle jhad
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    Yet people still go on about the 2nd ww?
    Yep, people are still talking about it, making films about it and making millions off of it, documentaries about it, books about it etc.

  14. #998
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    and to people of your age that is just "ancient" history and only that, you might just as well be talking about the roman invasion, it would have about the same relevance.

  15. #999
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    and to people of your age that is just "ancient" history and only that, you might just as well be talking about the roman invasion, it would have about the same relevance.
    My Grandad fought in the war, he was in both the Army and Navy, did service on HMS Peacock in the convoys, did his bit, would like to have met him, he passed when I was two.

  16. #1000
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    We who grew up in the 1950's saw and heard plenty to remind us of the 2nd World War.
    As a child I saw and wondered at the ragged tramps who spoke only broken English, who wandered from place to place, ever seeking casual work, or a night's lodgings in a shed. My father, who had fought all through the war, always took them in.

    'Displaced persons' they were called, who had found refuge here, and fought alongside our troops, some of them; but for them there was no way back. Their homes, their families, their very countries had been swept away. The fortunate ones eventually settled here, after a fashion, but they were always haunted by their past.

    As we got older, we grew up hearing true and often horrifying tales of life at the front, from men who would only speak about it when pressed. But my grandfather would refer back to the the 1st World War, and the endless horror of the trenches, and his wonderment at coming out of it alive and with all limbs intact.

    So those of us who heard these tales remembered them all our lives, and we remembered the nation that - we were told - started both these wars, and it gave us a long-term cynicism towards anything that nation got involved in.

  17. #1001
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    all you appear to be capable of is denigrating people who have somewhat different political views than your own. That is no way to put your points across.
    If you cannot argue logically, attempt to answer questions raised, and give evidence as to why you come to your conclusions, then that is your loss.

    ......I am somewhat to the left of centre so far as those terms still mean anything
    I've had the impression up till now that you're mostly left of centre and also a good and caring person in online conversations, someone I'd be happy to share a campfire with. So I'm glad you affirm that you are certainly not running with the extreme right, excepting agreement on some particular issues.

    My answers are logical, just not the logic you hoped for. You asked me to prove that you were wrong in believing the EU was set up as a Nazi institution but I thought you won't be convinced whatever information I prove or disprove. Sure enough when Schadenfreud gives you an answer, you dismissed wikipedia's information as being just the EU's version and only countered his other points by linking to an unsigned typed bit of paper that Dr Rath has put online. Fact is, most of us know that the Nazis were not the sort to share power, so the EU's structure was never going to appeal to that mindset, but I know that point won't sway you.

    If I want to look for facts behind a theory, I always look beyond the immediate discussion for online corroboration.
    If Dr Rath and Rodney Atkinson have a good case, then I'd expect to find that they had a sound reputation and decent evidence, or if not, that somewhere a respectable source was also putting forward the same theories with decent evidence. But as you know, I found both of them to be suspect, Dr Rath has been found guilty of malpractice, scamming and causing deaths by conducting negligent medical trials . As a recognised far right small time politician, Atkinson doesn't even pass the first litmus test of having been able to convince a number of his peer politicians, never mind historians. Not good when we're talking of what he claims is factual recent history. The only other sites carrying this are extreme Republican bloggers such as the link you provided with "Republican Riot - Saying it, so you donít have to" at the top of each page.

    So you see, I simply had a different logical approach, you wanted me to disprove your claims but I wanted to look at whether anyone making those claims could lay out a good case and what opposing cases have been made, but really too few people believe this for there to be much discussion out there about it. I respect that people's political opinions will cover a wide range within both those for and against Brexit but find your claim that the EU was constructed by the Nazi's to be easily refutable and important to refute. I may not change your mind, but believe me, if the evidence had been good I would have had to accept it.

  18. #1002
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    Thank you for your considered reply. My view is not that only Nazis set up the EU; it is that men who were Nazis during WW2 helped set up the EU. There can be no doubts about that, I am sure you will agree.

    Your approach to looking into this is quite logical, in that you are seeking to evaluate the track record of those who claim such things. While this certainly has a bearing upon the quality of some of the evidence they may produce, it cannot alter historical fact.

    We know as historical fact - taken from the prosecutor's evidence at the Nuremberg trials - that some of those duly convicted had worked at a high level in the huge German chemical companies who had supplied Hitler's Nazis with funding to get established before the 2nd World War, and had of course kept the Nazis war machine supplied throughout the war, including for its death camp activities. We have the evidence that these huge companies actually ran slave concentration camps as massive factories for the Third Reich.

    So when these men left prison early, at the request of the then German Government, and retook their places on the boards of those same companies (now split up and changed in name by the Allies, but still essentially the same), do we really think they were all changed men, who had learned their lessons, and would never seek to dominate Europe again?

    And when some of the economic architects of the Third Reich, likewise imprisoned for a few years and then released, were involved in the setting up of what would become the EU, do we really think they too were changed men, and would never seek to dominate Europe again?

    Remember all of the above had been very actively involved in Hitler's dream of a Federal Europe under the Thousand-Year Reich.

    Of course, there would be others involved in the formation of the pre-EU, and the EU itself. Some of them ex-resistance fighters even, who would temper what these ex-Nazis could do, and how they did it. For awhile. But over the years, the German hold over the EU has grown stronger, the same big companies and the same big banks are behind it that financed Hitler; the laws and dictates of the EU have become more repressive*, as it heads gradually towards a federal Europe; always the ancient dream, but this time not hammered out by powerful armies, but by stealth, under a beguiling cloak of neo-liberal values.

    Twice in relatively recent history we have experienced World Wars caused by those who head this German nation in search of a dream of European domination; do we really think they have learned their lesson now, and will not try a third time?

    *A socialist state cannot exist within the EU, because a socialist state reserves the right to nationalise, and EU rules do not allow this.

  19. #1003

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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    shut up troll.
    Drink bleach, fascist!

  20. #1004
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    Originally Posted by schadenfreude
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    Drink bleach, fascist!
    idiot!!
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    troll.

  21. #1005
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    Article 50 March 29
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    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  22. #1006
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    Originally Posted by NomadicRT
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    Article 50 March 29
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    and about bloomin' time too.

  23. #1007
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    Didnt take the rats long to start leaving
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    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  24. #1008
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    If Le Pen gets in, IMO some doubt there after Holland, that and Greece defaulting could very well split the EU but they have a better idea of where their market is best. It'll be down to the UK to prove them wrong, hopefully.
    Not all who wander are lost

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