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Thread: When did you suspect that Religions are Mad?

  1. #49
    Comfortably Numb Rick69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cricket
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    ......was Hell invented as a social control tool?At what point did it get involved in religion?Does anyone know?

    Was hell the reality of life, and was the prospect of heaven invented as a social control tool? More likely i think.
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    Heavenly Creature parrotandcrow's Avatar
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    It helps to remember that religion - as distinct from spirituality - is no more nor less than politics. It definitely is social control; hell is the political version of, "I'll tell your dad", whereas heaven; being postponed until you're dead, is a work of genius. You get a reward but are in no hurry to collect.

    Sadistic practitioners are skilled at giving you a taste of hell here and now if you don't toe the line. Your absent 'dad' gets the blame. This will hurt you more than me, sound familiar?

    I loathe the whole setup. As always, the political princes do very well for themselves while the serfs give all their goods up willingly, a tithe if you like. Easier than standard taxation, and as usual, the poorest are the ones who give the most.
    If men bore wings and had black feathers, few would be intelligent enough to be crows.
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  3. #51
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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    ...

    Why "someone"? it would be arrogant, or at least hasty, to assume that we could reduce <...> to a form which could make sense as a person. What if the face of <...> is human conflict, or the smell of decay, or gravity?
    I said 'someone' because it is easier, in our experience as human beings, to attribute intelligence to a person or other living creature. There is no intelligence whatsoever in human conflict, gravity, or the smell of decay. These are things....
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    Originally Posted by cricket
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    .... A good point actually...was Hell invented as a social control tool?At what point did it get involved in religion?Does anyone know?
    Hell was one half of the control tools, the whip for the donkey. Heaven was the carrot, of course.
    A dark place for evil ones and unbelievers does seem to predate the Jewish and Christian religions, but in a slightly different form. But most likely for the same purpose.

  5. #53
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    Originally Posted by FriedOnion
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    There is a quote about advanced technology looking divine, makes sense to me. How could you differentiate between tech & divine magic?
    Shades of the cargo cults...
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  6. #54
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    Originally Posted by parrotandcrow
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    It helps to remember that religion - as distinct from spirituality - is no more nor less than politics.
    It is clear that religions are human inventions, attempts to harness the power of <...>. Some succeed to some extent, and provide people with comfort, solace, redemption, inspiration and love. I don't think that politics does that!

    If you believe that <...> is love and in us all, then you can channel love and devotion to everyone around you. By "believe", I don't mean just tick the box, but know on a visceral level that <...> is the very centre of your life, the source of your power and the attraction which others feel towards you.

    This, I believe, is the common ground between several successful religions. Unfortunately it is in the (human) nature of religions that they each regard themselves as exclusive. Enter persecution and war stage left. Usurpers of religious power wait in the wings. Corrupt self-interested members of the priest caste run amok, stealing, extorting, raping etc etc. No wonder religion gets a bad name. Yet people seem to be more supported by religion than exploited by it - local variations will occur.

    So have I rejected religion? Certainly I have not paid my dues to any one of them, though I draw inspiration and strength from some. So I believe in "the power of religion", not in "religion A" or "religion B". Do I believe in god? Well, I certainly believe in <...>, who could knock any "god" you choose into a cocked hat.
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    I said 'someone' because it is easier, in our experience as human beings, to attribute intelligence to a person or other living creature. There is no intelligence whatsoever in human conflict, gravity, or the smell of decay. These are things....
    Whose intelligence? What do you know of the intelligence of <...>? You have simply created a god in your own image.
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  8. #56
    Heavenly Creature cricket's Avatar
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  9. #57
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    Originally Posted by cricket
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    ...was Hell invented as a social control tool?At what point did it get involved in religion?Does anyone know?
    Oh cricket, surely you know by now that the redeemer Jimmy Wales is always at hand?
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  10. #58
    Heavenly Creature cricket's Avatar
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    Why would I need redemption?

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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    Oh cricket, surely you know by now that the redeemer Jimmy Wales is always at hand?
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  11. #59
    Heavenly Creature cricket's Avatar
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    ...if your very bad I will put you out of the cave tonight and the tiger will eat you..?Yes I can see a neanderthal mother saying that after a 2 hour tantrum from a juvenile..some things dont change.
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    Hell was one half of the control tools, the whip for the donkey. Heaven was the carrot, of course.
    A dark place for evil ones and unbelievers does seem to predate the Jewish and Christian religions, but in a slightly different form. But most likely for the same purpose.

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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    Whose intelligence? What do you know of the intelligence of <...>? You have simply created a god in your own image.
    Show me then, the intelligence in things?

    Our experience here - or at least mine, yours may of course be different - is that intelligence resides, in varying degrees, in beings. By definition a 'thing' cannot think, although now some machines can mimic thinking to some degree, and may fool the non-technical into believing that they think.

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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    Show me then, the intelligence in things?

    Our experience here - or at least mine, yours may of course be different - is that intelligence resides, in varying degrees, in beings. By definition a 'thing' cannot think, although now some machines can mimic thinking to some degree, and may fool the non-technical into believing that they think.
    I'm not fussed about intelligence. It's just an attribute valued by humans. why should <...> care about it?

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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    I'm not fussed about intelligence. It's just an attribute valued by humans. why should <...> care about it?
    Because so far we have used our intelligence to exploit and waste what may be our home planet. Just think of what we might do with a few Universes.....
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    Heavenly Creature cricket's Avatar
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    We will never get the chance.God or not,hell or not we are not so intelligent that we know to properly care for our home planet.We will have poisoned all,including ourselves, well before we are able to spread galactically.

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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    Because so far we have used our intelligence to exploit and waste what may be our home planet. Just think of what we might do with a few Universes.....
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    Because so far we have used our intelligence to exploit and waste what may be our home planet. Just think of what we might do with a few Universes.....
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    You might say that was just humanity giving itself some bad Karma, why should <...> care? Or not.
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    Originally Posted by cricket
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    We will never get the chance.God or not,hell or not we are not so intelligent that we know to properly care for our home planet.We will have poisoned all,including ourselves, well before we are able to spread galactically.
    You're probably right, Cricket.
    Odd as it seems, intelligence isn't always used for good, although we feel it should be. Often it is used to figure out new ways to exploit other beings, make weapons, make war, corrupt the planet for money and the power it gives.
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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    You might say that was just humanity giving itself some bad Karma, why should <...> care? Or not.
    But an uncaring deity would be the same as no deity, surely?

    Those or that which is in charge carries the responsibility for all that they have brought into being, under Karmic law....

    Are you pondering that if a deity exists, it is a totally uncaring one? Something that I have occasionally thought of, too.
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    Originally Posted by parrotandcrow
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    Atheism is a lack of belief in a god, Boaty; which is different to believing a god doesn't exist.

    It isn't just semantics, belief is a positive thing, lack of belief is more akin to indifference.
    As I wrote earlier, there are several definitions of atheism.

    From Dictionary.com:

    noun 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

    2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.




    These two definitions, from the same source, seem to be contradictory. My understanding of the word atheism is definition 1, that's what I base my opinions on, that's what I believe common usage is, but I'm open to correction.

  20. #68
    Chilling Out frame69's Avatar
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    My only recollection of religion is what a load of confusing rubbish.

    Never made any impact on me and I have tried.

    Frame,
    Poor is the man who's pleasures depend on the permission of another.

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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    But an uncaring deity would be the same as no deity, surely?

    Those or that which is in charge carries the responsibility for all that they have brought into being, under Karmic law....

    Are you pondering that if a deity exists, it is a totally uncaring one? Something that I have occasionally thought of, too.
    Maybe, how could we know? But if we believe, we can obtain great energy from our faith. Maybe we conflate a mental trick with the existence of <...>.

    Our karma is our karma. Why do you suppose that <...> should carry responsibility for our free actions? is the Karmic Law to which you referred one which should bind <...>? surely not.

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    I don't necessarily think "Religion" is mad..... but many of its followers are absolutely fuckin' barking!!!


    Those Mountains that you're carrying, you were only supposed to climb.
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  23. #71
    Afloat ... or adrift? marshlander's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Boaty McBoatface
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    We differ on this. Atheism is a belief that God does not exist, if I may quote from the BBC site;

    "Atheists are people who believe that god or gods (or other supernatural beings) are man-made constructs, myths and legends or who believe that these concepts are not meaningful."

    Admittedly, there are many definitions of Atheism, from a "lack of belief" to "belief that God does not exist", so this argument will never be settled here.

    I define myself as agnostic, because although I find the possibility of God extremely small indeed, to state that God does not exist without any proof is a statement of belief rather than fact.
    I'm not sure we differ very much. It sounds like we are in the same place, although we label it differently. When I have read the Bible (and I have actually read it) I see stories, laws, poetry and genealogical accounts written by people; there being no evidence that the words were transmitted in any other way. I see references to "God" that were written by people with the balance of probability being that these came from orally shared stories before being codified. I see "revelations" that look similar to experiences of drug-induced illumination, or psychosis that I have experienced close up, and I see much more evidence of political interference in many translations (including the King James version that was pushed by many as the most correct for centuries - including the present day followers of the cult in which I was raised) and I see "miracles", which, even if they actually happened, can often be explained by phenomena we now understand better than I see the hand of any deity. My reading of the Q'ran is far less thorough, but again, the balance of probability suggests it far more likely to have been written by a person or persons. As for whether man invented god or god invented man I subscribe to the former. It is extraordinary, otherwise, how many gods reflect the prejudices of their believers.

    Looking at available evidence I subscribe to a balance of probability that there is no god. Is that the same as belief?Should further empirical evidence become available I may well be forced to look again. I don't see that as being agnostic, but I do see some political expedience in defining atheism in the same terms as religion and belief. For one thing it places them on an equal footing
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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    Maybe, how could we know? But if we believe, we can obtain great energy from our faith. Maybe we conflate a mental trick with the existence of <...>.
    and to assist belief or should I say to pull in the punters and relieve them of their hard earned talents/ shekels or whatever currency they had then, a few 'priestly tricks', the 'magic temple doors' for one as shown here.

    Not all who wander are lost
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