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Thread: Is The Catholic Church A Force For Good In The World

  1. #1

    Is The Catholic Church A Force For Good In The World

    An Intelligence Squared Debate from a few years ago. The motion - Is The Catholic Church A Force For Good In The World.Arguing for the motion the gorgeous Ann Widdecombe and Archbishop John Onaiyekan vs the very good Christopher Hitchens and eloquent Stephen Fry.
    A good debate if you like that sort of thing .



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    Last edited by likahamadoolihan; 11-01--2017 at 12:24 AM.


  2. #2
    Heavenly Creature etherea's Avatar
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    Absolutely not a good force for good. Weighing up their missionary and worldwide good works against their control over their Flock, their outdated views on all things sexual and their inability to part with millions upon millions of pounds/dollars whatever held in religious paraphernalia, in my opinion the answer to the OP's question is a no brainer
    Because you are alive, everything is posible - Thich Nhat Hanh
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  3. #3
    Transcending whitepoppy's Avatar
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    They are, along with all other organised religion, a force for racketeering and indoctrination. A way of stealing money and freewill, teaching the masses to accept an authoritative figure as the guiding force of your life, over your own personal responsibility and spiritual growth. I was raised Catholic, and its never gone away, its insidious teachings are lodged firmly in a part of my undeveloped brain. Doesn't matter how far I step away from it, the threat of eternal damnation is always in the background. Because they get you young.

    They own a ridiculous amount of wealth, that's amassed from its flock, that they use to pervert the course of justice regarding child sexual abuse, and the theft of babies from single mothers for adoptive sales. That money could be used to alleviate the suffering of so many peoples around the world, and instead it's used to protect sexual deviants.
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    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    Not many religions work on love and respect as the definitions of such qualities are twisted by many of the so called priests who are supposed to teach and practice same.

    The catholic church, go to exotic countries, meet exotic smiley peeps, destroy their gods, spread disease, enslave them and then rob them. Roger a few choirboys along the way, confess / exchange notes with the priest in a box and then come out all smug and clean and forgiven to carry on to do the same again.

    Not all who wander are lost
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  5. #5
    Walking back to happiness ma bungo's Avatar
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    No it is not.
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  6. #6
    FORM FROM THE VOID Danann's Avatar
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    No They Be Not Good Force For Good Be It Spiritually Of By Be Their In Name Of Church.
    Form From The Void & Mists
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  7. #7
    Heavenly Creature Editor aman's Avatar
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    Is any religion a force for good? I would say no.

    Religion should be something you practice behind closed doors in the privacy of your own home and should have no public intervention whatsoever.



    Paul
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    Transcending
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    "if you know what life is worth you will look for yours on Earth"

    Bob Marley.
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  9. #9
    Afloat ... or adrift? marshlander's Avatar
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    When I was growing up in the Mormon cult the RC Church was often referred to as the "great and abominable church". Talk about pots calling kettles black. More recently the two have teamed up in specially manufactured front organisations when there are human rights to be beaten back.

    The Catholic church has voted against every measure designed to advance human rights presented at the United Nations (sorry, I am not at home and do not have my copy of Geoffrey Robertson's "The Case Of The Pope" to hand for reference).

    I watched this debate some months/years ago and it was fascinating. Messrs Fry and Hitchens were magnificent whilst their opponents proved to be utterly implausible lightweights.
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    Originally Posted by aman
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    Religion should be something you practice behind closed doors in the privacy of your own home and should have no public intervention whatsoever.
    I'm amazed again at the intolerant attitudes of people hereabouts. Think of the misery which your opinion would impose if it was made law, particularly in countries where religion is part of daily life and religious festivals are enthusiastically observed. Maybe Stalin's USSR would have suited you?

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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    I'm amazed again at the intolerant attitudes of people hereabouts. Think of the misery which your opinion would impose if it was made law, particularly in countries where religion is part of daily life and religious festivals are enthusiastically observed. Maybe Stalin's USSR would have suited you?
    I think what Paul was putting across is that religion should have no influence on public life, which should be secular. Many of our freedoms today are hard-won from the religious past, when the overarching arm of religion reached into every corner of public life. If religious people kept to their own ideas amongst themselves it wouldn't be so bad, but many of them are hell-bent on getting everyone else into the same religious servitude.

    I would certainly prefer the authority of a benevolent secular dictator to that of an organised religion.
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    Many of our freedoms today are hard-won from the religious past, when the overarching arm of religion reached into every corner of public life.
    which "many freedoms" are those?

    If religious people kept to their own ideas amongst themselves it wouldn't be so bad, but many of them are hell-bent on getting everyone else into the same religious servitude.
    You can't generalise. Some religions, notably Sikhism and Judaism, do not prosyletise.

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    FORM FROM THE VOID Danann's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    I'm amazed again at the intolerant attitudes of people hereabouts. Think of the misery which your opinion would impose if it was made law, particularly in countries where religion is part of daily life and religious festivals are enthusiastically observed. Maybe Stalin's USSR would have suited you?
    I Be Understanding Of What You Are Saying And I Respect Your Thoughts And Thinking....But

    Too Often "Religion" Is Muddled With " Spiritual Beliefs" Of People/Tribe/Culture Etc ....Which Be Very Common As People Be Thinking That They Be The Same ...And Easy To Muddle.

    I Have Found And Know This To Be Very True As Many Of Our "Celebrations..Festivals ...Ceremonies Etc" Be Our Peoples "Spuritual Beliefs And Most Defo NOT A "Religion".

    And This What Most Have Posted Our Thoughts Were Solely Most In Part To Be "The Catholic Church" And Believe Me When I Say That "Me Danann" Being Just ONE Of Many Sadly Thousands Of People Who Have "Sufferred And Seen With Our Own Eyes And Bodies At The Hands Of This "Catholic Religion" Sadly
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    ((
    And Also Be Believing Me When I Say They Are NOT "Spiritual Or Religious" Experiences And Nothing To Do With And Furthest From Any " Celebrating And FestivalsAnd Anything Enthusiastic" You Could Think Off.


    Noooo They Be Cruel...Unkind..Evil....Sick...Dictators Of Pain And Abuse And Punishers And Squash Any Kind Of Human Rights Etc Etc Etc ...In The Sooo Called Name Of "Catholic Religion" .

    But Yes I Cannot Be Talking For Everybody But I Can Speak Out Sadly For Me And The Many Thousands Of... Innocent Children ..Women And Men Who Truly Have FELT And SUFFERED At The Hands Of Them
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    (

    So No My Earlier Be Posts And Other Members Posts Were Not Talking About Other Religions ONLY "Catholic Religion " Ok Some Might Not .Have Done ..But I Think Most Was..
    Form From The Void & Mists
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    Originally Posted by Danann
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    But Yes I Cannot Be Talking For Everybody But I Can Speak Out Sadly For Me And The Many Thousands Of... Innocent Children ..Women And Men Who Truly Have FELT And SUFFERED At The Hands Of Them ...
    It is difficult to forgive the RC church for that stuff. I don't share your background, but I certainly sense the strength of feeling against the church which it has caused, and I feel compassion for the suffering of all involved.

    Paul's point (that's "our" Paul, not St Paul) regarding "religion" I took to include all religions.

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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    which "many freedoms" are those?

    You can't generalise. Some religions, notably Sikhism and Judaism, do not prosyletise.
    Freedom to think as you like, and to discuss your thoughts with other people, without the fear of being reported to some religious authority.
    Freedom for scientific and philosophical ideas to be freely discussed and disseminated, without fear of reprisal from a jealous religious authority.
    Freedom to spend your spare time as you wish, without having to 'voluntarily' devote it to the local religious authority.
    Freedom to question the 'wisdom' of priests, whenever you wish, in public or in private discussion, without fear of reprisals.
    Freedom from the influence of religious authority telling you and your children what and whom they must worship, and when they must do it.
    Freedom from the iron grip of a religion which held up science for most of two thousand years because it wanted an army of slaves.
    Freedom from the false religious fear of an hereafter peopled with events and characters from a religious fantasy.
    Freedom from the straitjacket of religious thinking that was made to pervade every nook and cranny of the human mind in daily life.

    And that is only a few of the many such freedoms that I referred to. Until you have lived under it, or read or talked with those who have, you have no idea of how thinking and living is stultified under a strict religious authority, and the paranoia that it generates in the minds of those who may suspect they are not true believers.

    And I did not generalise. I said 'many'. I am aware that some religions are not pushers, but they are in the minority. You have only to look at the religious history of Europe over the past two thousand years, much of it not long ago in time, to get a very good idea of the evils of organised religion.
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    Freedom to think as you like, and to discuss your thoughts with other people, without the fear of being reported to some religious authority.
    Freedom for scientific and philosophical ideas to be freely discussed and disseminated, without fear of reprisal from a jealous religious authority.
    Freedom to spend your spare time as you wish, without having to 'voluntarily' devote it to the local religious authority.
    Freedom to question the 'wisdom' of priests, whenever you wish, in public or in private discussion, without fear of reprisals.
    Freedom from the influence of religious authority telling you and your children what and whom they must worship, and when they must do it.
    Freedom from the iron grip of a religion which held up science for most of two thousand years because it wanted an army of slaves.
    Freedom from the false religious fear of an hereafter peopled with events and characters from a religious fantasy.
    Freedom from the straitjacket of religious thinking that was made to pervade every nook and cranny of the human mind in daily life.

    And that is only a few of the many such freedoms that I referred to. Until you have lived under it, or read or talked with those who have, you have no idea of how thinking and living is stultified under a strict religious authority, and the paranoia that it generates in the minds of those who may suspect they are not true believers.

    And I did not generalise. I said 'many'. I am aware that some religions are not pushers, but they are in the minority. You have only to look at the religious history of Europe over the past two thousand years, much of it not long ago in time, to get a very good idea of the evils of organised religion.
    Sorry m8, you mentioned "freedoms hard-won from the religious past", I thought you were talking about legal persecution, not your internal landscape.

    I will withdraw from this discussion, as it seems to be a vehicle for hatred, directed at a former oppressor whom I never experienced, which can only be appreciated by fellow sufferers.

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    Heavenly Creature Editor aman's Avatar
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    I meant what I said. If people want to believe in Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, God, The Flying Spaghetti Monster etc then that is their own business. I might think they are a bit strange but as long as it doesn't affect me or is used to influence the public or political policy I see no harm in a little fantasy. But when it leads to war, genital mutilation, oppression, terror, persecution, shame, guilt, etc then it should be limited to those who sign up for it and not the general population who have to put up with other peoples fantasies manifest.

    I try to adhere to the Non Aggression Principal or NAP, I'm sure you have heard of it. People can do what the hell they like until it affects someone else who didn't want to be affected. Then it becomes a problem. Religion is the opposite of NAP

    Paul
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    Heavenly Creature etherea's Avatar
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    Absolutely!
    Because you are alive, everything is posible - Thich Nhat Hanh
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    Originally Posted by aman
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    I try to adhere to the Non Aggression Principal or NAP
    I wish you every success in that.

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    Heavenly Creature Editor aman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    I'm amazed again at the intolerant attitudes of people hereabouts. Think of the misery which your opinion would impose if it was made law, particularly in countries where religion is part of daily life and religious festivals are enthusiastically observed. Maybe Stalin's USSR would have suited you?
    I am confused as to why you also gave me a groovy for that post

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    Heavenly Creature Editor aman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Brynhyffryd
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    I wish you every success in that.
    Thank you
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    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aman
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    Is any religion a force for good?

    Paul
    Maybe an idea as a title for a new thread / debate.
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    Not all who wander are lost
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    Originally Posted by aman
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    I try to adhere to the Non Aggression Principal or NAP
    I get the impression hearabouts that a lot of people would agree with that statement, but that many of them have considerable difficulty in suppressing a seething rage with the world and its ways, or their personal situation.

    I would prefer the principles of Love, Respect and Compassion to NAP. Of course, they include NAP, but go just a bit further, and if you practice them you will find that the anger goes away. You may come across those principles wrapped in a religion, but the wrapper can itself be toxic.

    If I live in a society where, let us say, the great god Nnnn is worshipped in a ceremony at every dawn, and it makes the people happy and socially cohesive, who am I to tell them not to bother me with their ceremony or talk about it in public or wear "Nnnn is Great" T shirts? To do so would be disrespectful. And if they also ritually killed a chicken or goat at the Solstices, should I crusade against their cruelty? Call in an air strike?

    In attempting to right the many wrongs of this world, it is always easy to create new ones.
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    Originally Posted by aman
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    I am confused as to why you also gave me a groovy for that post
    I think it's groovy when anyone seems to be making a fair point to which I can respond, whether I agree with them or not, and/or when anyone responds to me, and/or when it makes me smile.
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