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Thread: Animal agriculture UK 2016

  1. #25
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Miss_bee
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    For vegans, is there any acceptable way to euthanize animals at all? Does it opinion vary on that, or is it totally unacceptable that an animal is exploited/killed to feed humans?
    The definition of veganism, as decided by the group who thought up the word:

    "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

    So no, there is no justifiable way to deliberately kill something that does not want to die. There are however some more excusable exceptions such as to prevent suffering, or for survival or defence - survival being highly unlikely in the western world and defence being more about parasites and infection.

    We live in a non-vegan world however, which means there will always be some suffering caused by our existence, and as such we can only do so much as is actually possible (rather than convenient).
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  2. #26
    That explains it all, thanks. I'm guilty of doing what is convenient, I'm afraid.
    I was a vegetarian years ago, but slid back into consuming meat.
    I know its indefensible, really.
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  3. #27
    Chilling Out frame69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Miss_bee
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    For vegans, is there any acceptable way to euthanize animals at all? Does it opinion vary on that, or is it totally unacceptable that an animal is exploited/killed to feed humans?
    Yes...indeed so.


    Frame.
    Poor is the man who's pleasures depend on the permission of another.

  4. #28
    Chilling Out frame69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by frame69
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    Yes...indeed so.


    Frame.
    There is no need to kill in order to sustain 'human' living.


    Frame.
    Poor is the man who's pleasures depend on the permission of another.
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  5. #29
    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Boaty McBoatface
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    we are the ultimate expression of evolution ........................ life will continue, evolve, and maybe surpass us.

    Are we ???????? With our blinkered selfish view and an almost total disrespect for the planet and other forms of life, we are gods over all others...................but what if in the millions of years that spawned us there is another higher form of life that's evolved beyond us and is yet to be discovered or to make it's self known. There's lots of 'man made' locations on earth which take some explaining.

    Thoughts for today.
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    Not all who wander are lost
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  6. #30
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    the answer is to eat a balanced diet, humans are omnivores- not 100% vegetarians, not 100% carnivores but a little of both.
    there are 2 problems, the amount of people on the planet and increasing every day with dwindling resources, and portion sizes- American size portions seem to be the order of the day- even fish and chips from the takeaway, I can buy 1 portion of fish and chips and its enough for the 2 of us and its the same in restaurants and cafe's, I always say we should have a taste not a feast!!
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"

  7. #31
    Heavenly Creature Lightbringer's Avatar
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    Yes I watched it, horrific.
    My family are dairy farmers.



  8. #32
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    i don't think there is much money in dairying anymore, not with the supermarkets paying the farmers less than it costs to produce milk.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"
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  9. #33
    Heavenly Creature Lightbringer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    i don't think there is much money in dairying anymore, not with the supermarkets paying the farmers less than it costs to produce milk.
    Yup! Once my grandparents die, my uncle is selling up

  10. #34
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    yes, a lot of people are getting out of dairying, but I still see a lot of milk tankers leaving the farms every day, creamery is about 9 miles away from me.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"
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  11. #35
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    the answer is to eat a balanced diet, humans are omnivores- not 100% vegetarians, not 100% carnivores but a little of both.
    We're a scavenger species that can adapt to various food types, so omnivorous in our scavenger ways, but we don't have the same digestive needs as true carnivores or even true omnivores.

    Biologically speaking we're herbivorous frugivores that can thrive without any animal protein - we're closely related to the great apes, and it's pretty well known that gorillas are 99% plant based in their diets - with the opportunist consumption of termites and caterpillars forming the 1%.

    If we visit a zoo (god forbid) we'll notice that the captives are fed diets according to their species - we're ordered not to feed the animals because we don't want to upset their digestive systems -- but for some reason humans don't think the same applies to them, and that we largely ignore our biology in favour of taste and availability rather than survival.

    I haven't eaten meat for 12 years, been vegan for nearly 4 years and I'm in pretty good shape and I don't feel like I'm missing out - it's a myth to believe that a balanced diet needs to include animal products.

    Yes, we may have evolved and adapted to eat meat as a means of survival, but that's no longer relevant in this abundant society, plus we've also evolved to use our brains, show compassion and make choices that aren't just about us.
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  12. #36
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    well, I know what I like and I will continue to eat what I like, and that includes meat, I would get very bored very quickly on a vegetarian diet. we know people on a very vegetarian diet and they both have IBS- I wonder why?
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"

  13. #37
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    well, I know what I like and I will continue to eat what I like, and that includes meat, I would get very bored very quickly on a vegetarian diet. we know people on a very vegetarian diet and they both have IBS- I wonder why?
    When thoroughly investigated, vegetarian (not vegan) diets are only marginally healthier and more ethical than omnivorous diets.

    However, I used to get indigestion regularly, and since I quit meat I've probably had less than 6-8 times in 12 years. I rarely get colds (although I'm not bombproof) and often get told I look between 6 and 10 years younger than I actually am.

    Of course people will eat what they want, because they put their taste buds above the life of the animal they're consuming.

    So, considering the evidence, it's not about health or survival - enough people on this forum alone will tell you how their health is - it's purely palate pleasure and unwillingness to let go of old ideas.

    Since going vegan I have had the most varied diet ever - yes I had to learn some new skills, but it's not all twigs and leaves y'know.
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  14. #38
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    and we(wife and I) don't just eat meat, we eat veg and fruit too, we have a varied diet and eat out maybe once a month, otherwise its good old English cooking- meat and two veg(sometimes 3). we gave up eating supermarket meat when we saw HFW's programme on Tesco Chickens(although I do have to admit we bought some cheap pork joints in Lidl's a couple of weeks ago but only cos it was cheap)we buy our meat in the local weekly market- less than 1 mile from our front door, veg and fruit too also wild bird food...wife feeds all the local wild birds in our garden-including wood pigeons. eggs are bought 1 mile up the road from an old boy who has chickens in his yard, cheap too 80p for 6 eggs. got some duck eggs last week £1 for 6, I don't think you can buy duck eggs in supermarkets, well you cant around here.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"

  15. #39
    Comfortably Numb Rick69's Avatar
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    Im in the same position as aliceswonderland. We buy meat that is near to or on expiry date, that would otherwise go to landfill or waste. Does that make it right or acceptable? If im being honest - no, but its a step closer in my eyes. Of course its a long way from the animal not dying but at least its not wasted. I know it wouldnt be if it wasnt killed in the first place, but it has been.

    Ive shot stuff before and ate it, ive shot stuff for farmers and let it go to waste, however i gave up shooting a few years ago, not wanting to kill stuff was one of the main reasons.

    I've bought cheap meat etc as well. I was brought up eating meat, i enjoy eating meat although i have tried vegetarian dishes before there always feels like there is something missing. If meat was no longer available i could probably get used to not having it.

    I watched the video, it makes difficult watching but as someone said if you eat meat you should. How people can treat animals like that ill never understand. I work in a fish factory, and although all our stuff is dead ive been on boats and seen them hauled in and gutted alive.

    So does it make me a hypocrite for condemning cruelty to dogs etc, yes it probably does.
    Will i stop eating meat, probably not at this time.
    Do i respect other peoples choices to not eat meat, yes and admire them for their convictions.
    Ive got other stuff to sort out in my life, some done, some in progress. Maybe once thats done its something that I'll look at.
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  16. #40
    Shed Junkie alices wonderland's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul
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    When thoroughly investigated, vegetarian (not vegan) diets are only marginally healthier and more ethical than omnivorous diets.

    However, I used to get indigestion regularly, and since I quit meat I've probably had less than 6-8 times in 12 years. I rarely get colds (although I'm not bombproof) and often get told I look between 6 and 10 years younger than I actually am.

    Of course people will eat what they want, because they put their taste buds above the life of the animal they're consuming.

    So, considering the evidence, it's not about health or survival - enough people on this forum alone will tell you how their health is - it's purely palate pleasure and unwillingness to let go of old ideas.

    Since going vegan I have had the most varied diet ever - yes I had to learn some new skills, but it's not all twigs and leaves y'know.
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    I was brought up to eat what was cooked. 50% came in from the fields, 30% traded for with the butcher. My stomach has the constitution of a bustbin. I would consume a stinking dead rat if it was cooked well, served up nice and I thought it a bargain.
    Folk have thought I look 10 to 15 years younger than I am. That's probably changed as my beard is grey now.
    My body craves variety. new eating experiences, healthy food. I have everything to gain by embracing a largely vegetarian diet. But that can never satisfy the "on moral grounds" brigade. All it would mean is I throw a smaller stone into the water.
    even a gypsy caravan is too much settling down.

  17. #41
    Heavenly Creature Rainbomama's Avatar
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    Me and uj are both veggy,for me and i think him ,this time id was a gradual thing,i slowly went off of meat,due to taste,the poor quality ofthe meat,what we know it contains,and the treatment of the animals during the complete meat production process..i dont think id eat meat again,i dont enjoy it anymore.ujs said he may eat it if a good quality, and sourced meat tempts him..we have a good varied diet,mostly cooked fresh and from scratch..being adventurous with your tastes and having a good teacher helps with menus etc xx
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  18. #42
    Not Quite a Noobie
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    Can't speak for any one else, but for this vegan, no - no 'acceptable way to euthanize animals' (except perhaps to bring a swift end to unrecoverable injuries from some trauma).

    Not only totally unacceptable, but totally unnecessary. My only dilemma is medicines, which would be hard to source ethically if I should need them some day. Otherwise, for now, my partner and I live in absolute comfort, with full and happy bellies, warmly clothed with no hardship or extra cost. Not perfect - sure we slip up now and then - but we do the best we can, causing the least harm or suffering we can.
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  19. #43
    And if you did need medicines? I'm not being deliberately contentious, just wondering? Would you consider it reasonable and unavoidable if you had to take them?

  20. #44
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Miss_bee
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    And if you did need medicines? I'm not being deliberately contentious, just wondering? Would you consider it reasonable and unavoidable if you had to take them?
    All medicine in Europe (and the US and maybe elsewhere) is animal tested by law -- so, in times of illness it's simply not doable to avoid them.

    If you're dead then you're no use to anyone, and as such most vegan organisations will encourage you to take what you need to take.

    There are campaigns to invest into alternatives to vivisection, and therefore it's important to support those campaigns because non-animal research is massively under funded.
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  21. #45
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    animal testing is different to animal agriculture. separate topic.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"

  22. #46
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    animal testing is different to animal agriculture. separate topic.
    Yes, but not entirely. Laboratory animals are also farmed in appalling conditions, and all animal suffering caused by humans is because we believe we have a right to use them - that they are lesser.

    It's all commodification and use - it's denying sentient beings the right to have agency over their own lives.
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  23. #47
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    Originally Posted by Paul
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    Yes, but not entirely. Laboratory animals are also farmed in appalling conditions, and all animal suffering caused by humans is because we believe we have a right to use them - that they are lesser.

    It's all commodification and use - it's denying sentient beings the right to have agency over their own lives.
    yes but they aren't agricultural animals are they? rats, mice, rabbits are not agricultural animals. if you want to talk about laboratory animals I think you need a separate thread or else its going off topic.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"

  24. #48
    Heavenly Creature
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    Even if we were all vegans, the interesting question arises of what would we do about the small furry creatures that love to eat our grain, despoil our crops, and generally make a nuisance of themselves?

    A quite large percentage of the world's wheat, rice, and other grain crops are lost each year to rats, mice, and birds, without bringing insects into the equation. India alone loses about 20 million tonnes of wheat, rice and lentils, the equivalent of Canada’s annual wheat crop, to rats and birds, or it is spoiled to the extent that it cannot be eaten.

    If we have to kill them to save food, then why not eat them? It's much less wasteful, although to some perhaps distasteful.
    You can't do this if you poison them, of course. But that would be a waste of natural resources.
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