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Thread: Animal agriculture UK 2016

  1. #49
    Walking back to happiness ma bungo's Avatar
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    What would you feed your pet cat too? Dogs can 'survive ' with out meat , but cats do not fair so well !
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  2. #50
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    fish? mice? all the cats round here catch their own breakfast!
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"

  3. #51
    Heavenly Creature Lightbringer's Avatar
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    Would you eat me Paul?


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  4. #52
    Walking back to happiness ma bungo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    fish? mice? all the cats round here catch their own breakfast!
    Ever seen a cat catch a fish ?
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  5. #53
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldkeith
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    Even if we were all vegans, the interesting question arises of what would we do about the small furry creatures that love to eat our grain, despoil our crops, and generally make a nuisance of themselves?

    A quite large percentage of the world's wheat, rice, and other grain crops are lost each year to rats, mice, and birds, without bringing insects into the equation. India alone loses about 20 million tonnes of wheat, rice and lentils, the equivalent of Canada’s annual wheat crop, to rats and birds, or it is spoiled to the extent that it cannot be eaten.

    If we have to kill them to save food, then why not eat them? It's much less wasteful, although to some perhaps distasteful.
    You can't do this if you poison them, of course. But that would be a waste of natural resources.
    There is a a difference between deliberate exploitation, accidental harm and protecting our own interests. With all this in mind, I don't see it as an insurmountable issue - that while we could never stop harming other species, we could reduce it drastically.

    The amount of land currently devoted to animal agriculture is vast, so the first step would be to stop inseminating and breeding thus, over a generation or so, reducing the amount of "food" animals, and the need to feed them.

    The food currently being given to them could be redesignated - For example, 90% of soya production is for cattle. Some of the other land could be used for crops, housing or given back to nature perhaps. The fact that we've deforested the entire planet is potentially a reason we have issues with wildlife -- and considering the rejection of animal use would free up already existing crops, it may not hurt if we do lose some of it to other critters (it could be our payback).

    Of course, this is all speculative, but I think people are typically unaware of how many animals are deliberately killed for food every year and how much impact this has (it's about 150 billion worldwide including fish, but not including accidental and environmentally linked deaths from pollution, ocean by catch, habitat loss and extinctions)
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  6. #54
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ma bungo
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    What would you feed your pet cat too? Dogs can 'survive ' with out meat , but cats do not fair so well !
    A brief answer (I don't want to upset Hagrid for going offtopic again
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    ) is that domesticated cats have been ridiculously overbred and are already a threat to our native wildlife - in my opinion we need to get over our "fetishising" of cats and aim for a reduction in population through neutering.

    It's another issue in the way we treat animals as property -- we do it without thinking of the wider consequences -- but cats are pretty capable of finding their own food if allowed to get on with it.
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  7. #55
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    Originally Posted by ma bungo
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    Ever seen a cat catch a fish ?
    yes, I take it you've never been around a fish quay??
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  8. #56
    Shed Junkie alices wonderland's Avatar
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    What about working dogs, Police dogs, bomb squad, rescue, guide dogs, helper dogs. Should vegetarianisum be all there is for them? or force them onto the more extreme vegan diet too? Or remove them from service, not breed them for purpose?

    If we need to base this on morals and ethics, avoiding exploitation or cruelty there really shouldn't be any exceptions.
    even a gypsy caravan is too much settling down.

  9. #57
    Walking back to happiness ma bungo's Avatar
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    Impossing your beliefs on a animal is not really fair , dogs are omnivores though and do not need meat , though left to their own devices would like it , cats are carnivores and need meat for nutritional needs.

  10. #58
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    Originally Posted by ma bungo
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    Ever seen a cat catch a fish ?
    My mam had cats.
    My dad had a pond.

    The cat caught several fish before he taught it the error of its ways by chucking it in every time he caught it near the pond.


    I have been around quays and fish factories many times over the years and i have never seen a cat catch a fish. Ive seen them eating scraps along with rats and foxes, but never catching anything.

    I didnt know dogs didnt need meat though...
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  11. #59
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    I think dogs DO need meat, have you ever looked at the ingredients on a complete dog food pack? its like humans eating fast food..full of chemicals and other crap.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"
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  12. #60
    Walking back to happiness ma bungo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    I think dogs DO need meat, have you ever looked at the ingredients on a complete dog food pack? its like humans eating fast food..full of chemicals and other crap.
    No Hagrid , they do not NEED meat , but you have to be very careful about balencing their nutritional needs if you do not give them meat .It is the same as saying humans have to have meat. I do not own a dog at the moment , but I definatly would include meat in its diet .


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  13. #61
    Heavenly Creature parrotandcrow's Avatar
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    Dogs are carnivores. Their dentition and digestive systems are those of carnivores. I get fed up of arguing this, even with vets, who presumably learn about biological systems during their training, but will call dogs omnivores, presumably because pet industry companies and the like pay for training and holidays; sorry, I mean seminars in holiday locations and therefore expect the rubbish they sell to be pushed as healthful.

    Wild dogs will scavenge and eat what is available, but their primary diet is hunted and killed. They eat the stomach and contents first, which is the most veggie part of their diet, and will pick and eat some berries in season. This does not make them omnivorous, mostly vegetation is taken to make them vomit and clear their systems. Other scavenged food is taken if they cannot get by on what they have hunted.

    I am speaking as someone who has long studied anatomy and zoological systems, and am old enough to remember dogs being fed meat and table scraps, until the pet industry discovered that waste cereal products could be repackaged as dog and cat food. To hell with the damage it does to the animal, and again, I am speaking as someone who held my dog's stomach open with forceps when the vet had to do an emergency operation to remove the soya chunks designed to look like meat. There was no time to arrange for an anaesthesist so he had to operate on her using local anaesthetic, with me as assistant.

    I'm vegan, my dogs are not.
    If men bore wings and had black feathers, few would be intelligent enough to be crows.
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  14. #62
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by alices wonderland
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    What about working dogs, Police dogs, bomb squad, rescue, guide dogs, helper dogs. Should vegetarianisum be all there is for them? or force them onto the more extreme vegan diet too? Or remove them from service, not breed them for purpose?

    If we need to base this on morals and ethics, avoiding exploitation or cruelty there really shouldn't be any exceptions.
    My own personal take is that there is no ethical use of animals, and that includes all service dogs, riding horses or buying pets from breeders. The only ethical ownership of animals is for rescue; when we treat them as "refugees" from human intervention and don't impose any expectations on them.

    We wouldn't enslave humans to do dangerous work or breed them to be slaves for the disabled -- so it's partly a matter of economics that prevents us from paying people handsomely (or developing robots) to do the same thing. Of course, if you're blind and presented with this option you'd be hard pressed to turn it down, but it's still a part of the same ethos that makes it OK to use animals because they're somehow less important than us.

    The majority of animal abuse happens in the food, clothing and ingredients industry, then it's vivisection and then sports and entertainment -- the issues of other exploitation still need addressing, but in the grand scheme of things this is a bit of a diversion away from the more urgent issues.
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  15. #63
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ma bungo
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    Impossing your beliefs on a animal is not really fair , dogs are omnivores though and do not need meat , though left to their own devices would like it , cats are carnivores and need meat for nutritional needs.
    We have been imposing our beliefs on animals for over ten thousand years - the domestication of animals is a result of this, so there's not really any nature left now -- we took away their agency over their own lives a long time ago, so all we can do now is try to clean up the mess through neutering, legislating against breeding and educating people on how much damage our companion animals can do.

    Dogs do not need to eat meat, and most of the time they adapt to a vegan diet pretty well -- bearing in mind that most people feed their dogs an appalling diet of processed junk anyway. I've seen plenty of happy, healthy vegan dogs who thrive without meat, after all, they are opportunistic scavengers and can eat pretty much anything.

    Cats can potentially thrive on a vegan diet, even as obligate carnivores, but only if special attention is given to ingredients such as taurine. Not all cats take to this, and of course they will hunt their own food, but if you're a vegan who keeps cats (or any animal), then it makes sense to at least investigate the available options rather than continuing to justify the trade you're otherwise opposed to.

    Obviously nobody would or should kill their pet, but on a purely logical, unemotional basis, keeping companion animals is a destructive pastime.

  16. #64
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    i don't think we should be forcing a human diet-vegan or otherwise- on animals, dogs especially were bred down from wolves and they are definitely carnivores, but dogs will eat anything they find from meat to other animals droppings.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"

  17. #65
    the devil's avocado Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    i don't think we should be forcing a human diet-vegan or otherwise- on animals, dogs especially were bred down from wolves and they are definitely carnivores, but dogs will eat anything they find from meat to other animals droppings.
    We force everything onto pets anyway, they haven't had agency over their own lives for thousands of years. We've deforested the natural landscape, bred our own species and fetishised animals as our companions - they are already dependent on us for their food, shelter and medicine, and as such we're not talking about wild animals. Changing their diet or neutering is an ethical and healthy attempt at reversing several millennia of damage.
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  18. #66
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    trouble is said diet is nowhere close to "healthy" nor is it cheap in some cases. I always fed my dogs on dog "sausage" 3 dogs had one third each plus some mixer and that at least came close to healthy but the modern "complete" dog food is full of chemicals and crap, I think this stuff is what makes modern puppies hyper.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"
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  19. #67
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    Originally Posted by Len
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    The truth is that the human population is too much for earth, if we didn't eat meat then the planet would be stripped of all other food sources. And we don't have field space to replace this, along with the ever growing populations housing needs. I'm sure the government are aware of this and will probably blow up a country or two to use for farming but maybe I'm going too deep. Anyhow I found the video quite disturbing myself, i could never work in such places.
    First up, I agree that we have too many people on the planet but I am at a loss as to how they can be fairly controlled??

    If I understand you correctly that no meat would mean we couldn't grow enough food crops to feed folk, then I think that if you check your information you will find out you are some way from the truth.

    Whilst it is impossible to grow all crops on all sorts of land, it is worth noting that it takes 7 to 10kg of "vegetable animal feed" to produce just 1kg of edible meat!! [Whilst that can be called inefficient conversion, the animal output in the way of faeces and urine is far from inefficient and, in itself, a real and growing problem. Don't get me started on what happens to all the guts and "useless" bits.]

    Don't know about you but eating 7 to 10kg of veggies would take me much longer than eating a kilo of meat and would sustain life for longer too.
    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

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  20. #68
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    some of the land wont grow crops, its too low grade, the only thing it will grow is grass and that means animals.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"

  21. #69
    Walking back to happiness ma bungo's Avatar
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    Well I am sticking with my belief dogs are omnivores and cats are carnivores , and this belief is endorsed by my partner who is a veterinary surgeon of over 25 years and works as a referral surgeon at a large veterinary hospital where they spend much of their time removing foreign body from creatures stomachs.
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  22. #70
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    dogs are still carnivores, but they are also opportunists and will eat whatever crosses their path, I suppose that makes them scavengers.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"

  23. #71
    Chilling Out Red Dragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    some of the land wont grow crops, its too low grade, the only thing it will grow is grass and that means animals.
    Agree with all but the last 4 words!
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    Why do we have to do anything with it except grow grass?
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  24. #72
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    Originally Posted by Red Dragon
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    Agree with all but the last 4 words!
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    Why do we have to do anything with it except grow grass?
    because that is the only thing it will grow, like around here, its solid clay and any plant dies as soon as its roots hit the clay, grass and hay is the only thing the land will grow.
    " Does not suffer fools gladly!"

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