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Thread: We should have stayed or Why it's good we're leaving!

  1. #25
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    no that's just a waiting room for their particular style of heaven. the majority of them seem to be asleep most of the time.
    Still unelected and have lots of power.

  2. #26
    Walking back to happiness ma bungo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    i'm more afraid of leaving power in the hands of unelected and seemingly unaccountable bureacrats.
    Like Teresa May ?

  3. #27
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    Originally Posted by ma bungo
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    Like Teresa May ?
    To think, all these unelected officials in our system of governemnt, and yet it is conveinently ignored by the anti-EU folk.

  4. #28
    Transcending Red Dragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    Still unelected and have lots of power.
    ...and there are far more in that house who are not Tories - 254 Tories out of 805.
    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

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  5. #29
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    we have the chance to remove our m.p.'s every 5 years, we cant do that with the EU. MEP's maybe but not the bureacrats which is where the main power lies. I don't want to live in the United States of Europe, i'm an ENGLISHMAN born and bred, I want my own country and my own government which is accountable to the people at general elections.

  6. #30
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    we have the chance to remove our m.p.'s every 5 years, we cant do that with the EU. MEP's maybe but not the bureacrats which is where the main power lies. I don't want to live in the United States of Europe, i'm an ENGLISHMAN born and bred, I want my own country and my own government which is accountable to the people at general elections.
    Do you realise, in this country main power lies in whitehall, full of unelected bureacrats, the place often reffered to as the centre of government where alot of all the different departments and ministries can be found. So, you were saying about bureacrats...........

  7. #31
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    civil servants you mean? they can be replaced if they don't do what their told. at least ours can, we don't have any say about the European ones.
    anyway like I said, I also don't want to be in a federalist Europe, a United States of Europe, where our voice is one amongst 28, could be more in a few years.
    anyway I think the EU is a failed project, it will collapse in a few years time, especially if Marine Le Pen has anything to do with it.

  8. #32
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    anyway I think the EU is a failed project, it will collapse in a few years time, especially if Marine Le Pen has anything to do with it.
    They are behind, they will lose.

  9. #33
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    To think, all these unelected officials in our system of governemnt, and yet it is conveinently ignored by the anti-EU folk.
    Breaking my own wish for this thread.

    On the one hand, many on here seem to complain about unelected officials like TM and seemingly equal numbers wonder why there is an election in June!!

    The reason we have a Tory government is simple, not enough people believed the dissembling of Labour and there is no reason to believe anything will change on 8th June.

    Not a Tory supporter but I want us out of the EU tout suite and so I will vote Tory to help give them a clear mandate to negotiate on behalf of the get-us-out-of-here majority voters. That clear mandate should also send a clear message to those on the other side of the Channel.


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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    Do you realise, in this country main power lies in whitehall, full of unelected bureacrats, the place often reffered to as the centre of government where alot of all the different departments and ministries can be found. So, you were saying about bureacrats............
    All governments, even dictatorships, have back-room bureaucrats, so what makes you believe that none of the other EU countries have their own equivalent of Whitehall?

    The backroom bureaucrats in the EU countries are not the problem, it's the front-of-house bureaucrats running the EU that are.
    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
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  10. #34
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    They are behind, they will lose.
    they said that about our referendum, you know how that turned out.
    in any case dosent matter if she loses, it will have an effect on their future.

  11. #35
    Transcending Red Dragon's Avatar
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    The United States of America have had more than 200 years for their attempt at federation and look at the shambles that is. What on earth makes you think that the current 28 States of Europe will ever become a fully functional United States of Europe?
    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

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  12. #36
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    Originally Posted by Red Dragon
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    Breaking my own wish for this thread.

    On the one hand, many on here seem to complain about unelected officials like TM and seemingly equal numbers wonder why there is an election in June!!

    The reason we have a Tory government is simple, not enough people believed the dissembling of Labour and there is no reason to believe anything will change on 8th June.

    Not a Tory supporter but I want us out of the EU tout suite and so I will vote Tory to help give them a clear mandate to negotiate on behalf of the get-us-out-of-here majority voters. That clear mandate should also send a clear message to those on the other side of the Channel.



    All governments, even dictatorships, have back-room bureaucrats, so what makes you believe that none of the other EU countries have their own equivalent of Whitehall?

    The backroom bureaucrats in the EU countries are not the problem, it's the front-of-house bureaucrats running the EU that are.
    I am refferring to the hypocrisy of brexiters who complain about unelected officials in the EU whilst at the same time ignoring the issue of the ones we have here.
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  13. #37
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    I am refferring to the hypocrisy of brexiters who complain about unelected officials in the EU whilst at the same time ignoring the issue of the ones we have here.
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    well at least they are OURS!!!

  14. #38
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    Originally Posted by hagrid
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    well at least they are OURS!!!
    Still does not excuse the hypocrisy
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  15. #39
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    I am refferring to the hypocrisy of brexiters who complain about unelected officials in the EU whilst at the same time ignoring the issue of the ones we have here.
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    It's just as well you offer a
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    as your justification for your conflation. I think that if you asked those of us that want out, you would find that we can tell the difference between the unelected backroom bureaucrats and the front-of-house bureaucrats running the asylum.
    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
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  16. #40
    My stance and last word on anything like this. It is why I believe in what I do.

    I do not believe in "us and them" I only believe in us, and this is everyone on this planet. As soon as you start drawing lines in the sand of who isn' and who is "one of "us" you start descrimating and saying one person in the "us" circle is more important than one outside it. Politically one big "us" across the planet we share isn't going to happen soon, but the EU is a big enough "us"in the current political situation to be compromise.

    No one on this planet has a greater or lesser value than anyone else. And certainly being British adds no more value than being a Turk, or a Belgian, or a Somalian.
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  17. #41
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    Originally Posted by Red Dragon
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    It's just as well you offer a
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    as your justification for your conflation. I think that if you asked those of us that want out, you would find that we can tell the difference between the unelected backroom bureaucrats and the front-of-house bureaucrats running the asylum.
    Then why is nothing being done about it, all I see is people complaining about unelected officials in Europe but not the ones at home, could this just be a cloak for xenophobia perhaps.

  18. #42
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    Originally Posted by Languid Virago
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    My stance and last word on anything like this. It is why I believe in what I do.

    I do not believe in "us and them" I only believe in us, and this is everyone on this planet. As soon as you start drawing lines in the sand of who isn' and who is "one of "us" you start descrimating and saying one person in the "us" circle is more important than one outside it. Politically one big "us" across the planet we share isn't going to happen soon, but the EU is a big enough "us"in the current political situation to be compromise.

    No one on this planet has a greater or lesser value than anyone else. And certainly being British adds no more value than being a Turk, or a Belgian, or a Somalian.
    In theory, we all have equal value but we do not all share the same values. One size, of values, most certainly does not fit all. Bring politics into the equation and you are going to 100% end up with those who are "in" and those who are "out". Just look at the USSR between the 1915 Revolution and the break up in 1991.

    Post #35 sets out my views and so what I wish to know is - do we really have to all live in the same "house"?? Why can't we all live as neighbours and just share our shopping and visiting rights?
    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

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  19. #43
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    Then why is nothing being done about it, all I see is people complaining about unelected officials in Europe but not the ones at home, could this just be a cloak for xenophobia perhaps.
    HAHAHAHA - how many of the backroom bureaucrats do you feel it is reasonable to elect when there are more than 400,000 people in the UK Civil Service?
    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

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  20. #44
    lone wolf survivalist.
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    i want to start a nice policy of "i'm backing Britain".

  21. #45
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red Dragon
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    HAHAHAHA - how many of the backroom bureaucrats do you feel it is reasonable to elect when there are more than 400,000 people in the UK Civil Service?
    It's not about electing them, it is about the silly arguments some Brexiters have put forward for Brexit about unelected Beauracrats. Why can't some Brexiters just admit that they do not like Europe or are xenophobic, instead of coming up with some arguments that just don't stand.

  22. #46
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    I love the Europeans, but I hate the EU and what it has become.
    the original idea of "the common market", trade and nothing but trade, was an excellent idea.
    but its every since Maastrict -1992 I think, and the idea of a Federal Europe fills me with horror, that's what Napoleon and Hitler wanted, and I want no part of any of it.
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  23. #47
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    It's not about electing them, it is about the silly arguments some Brexiters have put forward for Brexit about unelected Beauracrats. Why can't some Brexiters just admit that they do not like Europe or are xenophobic, instead of coming up with some arguments that just don't stand.
    Yours is a cyclical argument as you are trying to imply that some of those who want out are conflating all unelected bureaucrats and that's plain wrong. It's those who are "in charge" that we have the problems with.

    What percentage is the "some" that you continue to use?

    Which arguments "just don't stand"?

    So far, I can see absolutely nothing from you that suggests there is even one good reason for being part of the EU.

    Oh and by the way, please stop using Europe and the EU as the same thing, they are not. I think you will be very hard pressed to find anyone who wants out of the EU who does not like Europe.

    I will agree that there is almost certainly some genuine xenophobia. However, what is also true is most of those who raise the migrant theme come from a full cross-section of those born in the UK and crosses all colours and faiths; it is not only the white faces questioning the lack of sense in our current migrant policy.
    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

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  24. #48
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Firstly considering 44% of our goods and services went to EU (2015)

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    Net benefit of membership is around 4% to 5% of GDP and membership has increased foreign investment into the UK.

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    The ECHR helps make the UK a better place, the UK helped create it and most of the rights are in UK law, I do not think a Tory bill of human rights would be as fair towards people.

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    Don't forget the free trade area, where there are no Tariffs, which there will be if we end up switiching to WTO tarriffs if we get a hard brexit. Europe is a market of 500million, that is find of good for trade.

    etc etc etc.

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