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Thread: Catalan independence

  1. #25
    Heavenly Creature Levey's Avatar
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    This is Europe for God's sake, the whole of the EU not one leader of any country has made a solitary comment over this , talk about a closed shop ... God Bless Catalan

  2. #26
    Afloat ... or adrift? marshlander's Avatar
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    As I suspected, very complicated ...


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  3. #27
    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    Shame that they haven't got a Q Bomb like the Duchy of Grand Fenwick.
    Not all who wander are lost
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  4. #28
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    PM Rajoy has completely misjudged this and gone way OTT. I think it will seal his and his governments fate in the not too distant future.Not only has he polarised the debate overnight and given the Catalans a good argument now for independence,hes risked reigniting Basque calls for independence who only recently disarmed and dropped their demands..
    All Rajoy has done in creating this mess is prove what an inept leader and politician he is.(not that there was any doubt before)
    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...
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  5. #29
    Vice President of the European Parliament calls Catalonia a 'coup against Europe'

    Ramón Luis Valcárcel @RL_Valcarcel
    ''Today we have witnessed a nationalistic propaganda act, undemocratic; a coup attempt against Spanish democracy, and so a coup against Europe''
    10:19 pm · 1 Oct 2017


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  6. #30
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by marshlander
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    Can you clarify your statement, please, schadenfreude? I have no way of knowing the accuracy of the statistics, but the ones I've found indicate that the British Government were responsible for 299 deaths (9% of the total of 3,466). Yes, thousands died, but most deaths were at the hands of Republicans, who also suffered the greatest losses. Maybe Europe didn't interfere because that would have put them in direct conflict with the U.S. who funded a lot of the arms that were taken up in N.I.

    Somehow I don't think London would have sent troops into Scotland because of a referendum that had no "official" status. There are far more effective means of discrediting the outcomes of such a plebiscite ... just read the national press and see it in action all the time.

    Where Spain seems to have got it so wrong is that the response is wholly disproportionate to the matter being discussed. It make sense to me that no one should act until facts become clear. Having denied Catalan people a chance to explore the extent of support for declaring independence the government have muddied the waters whilst hardening attitudes on both sides. One might have hoped the terrible history of Spain in the twentieth century might have informed better the decision to send in the troops.

    I'm not a fan of national anthems as such, but how many of you know the Catalan anthem, "Els Segadors"? The words may be pretty fierce, but it is one one the most heartbreakingly moving melodies of any national anthem I have heard. Brings me to tears every time I hear it. In the context of this weekend I feel so, so sad.


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    If you can try and find a version by Ferran Savall who brings out the beauty of the melody in a way unlike any other performance I have heard ... and I have listened to a lot of versions.
    The main reason the NI troubles went on so long is because it was confined to the province across the sea by sitting UK governments which is how they thought they could contain and manage it and is why the IRA switched tactics and brought the active campaign to the mainland.
    Had it been a mainland issue from the start its unlikely it would have gone on so long or met with such radical management from the UK government as it did.
    Tragic that it went on so long and so many lost their lives but the root of it all lay firmly at the feet of the British government and their policy put them at odds with US politicians for decades.
    Seemingly.politicians learn nothing from history with Mays handling of NI to date and Rajoy seems to have ignored what wss learned in the Basque issue.
    Tragic and avoidable.
    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...
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  7. #31
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by likahamadoolihan
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    Vice President of the European Parliament calls Catalonia a 'coup against Europe'

    Ramón Luis Valcárcel @RL_Valcarcel
    ''Today we have witnessed a nationalistic propaganda act, undemocratic; a coup attempt against Spanish democracy, and so a coup against Europe''
    10:19 pm · 1 Oct 2017


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    Hasnt taken long for the EU propanganda unit to swing into action....worried about their financisl support to Spain with chains attached going tits up. no doubt.
    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  8. #32
    One life, live it Bernie's Avatar
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    There was always speculation that Spain would revert back to old pre civil war arrangements after Franco died, although that was a long time ago now and it looked like they had got away it. Now it might be starting.

    The old Yugoslavia broke up after Tito and that ended in Civil Wars (plural). Don't underestimate how serious this could get.

  9. #33
    I'm in Catalunya at the moment. Near Palafrugell. LOTS of police around, and there is no parking allowed in the centre of town. Some scuffles, but nothing like Barcelona.

  10. #34
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    Originally Posted by TheConstantGarde
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    I'm in Catalunya at the moment. Near Palafrugell. LOTS of police around, and there is no parking allowed in the centre of town. Some scuffles, but nothing like Barcelona.
    Hope you stay safe , must feel really wierd for you
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  11. #35
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bernie
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    There was always speculation that Spain would revert back to old pre civil war arrangements after Franco died, although that was a long time ago now and it looked like they had got away it. Now it might be starting.

    The old Yugoslavia broke up after Tito and that ended in Civil Wars (plural). Don't underestimate how serious this could get.
    Many of the old divisions remain,theyve just papered over the cracks,it doesnt take much for the paper to fall off. I think the same is going to happen in NI soon.
    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  12. #36
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Madrid has three options pretty much: They can offer independence, they can give even more autonomy to the region to try and stop independence, or they can try and stop everything altogether which would probably make things even worse. I reckon it would be more autonomy that they offer.

  13. #37
    One life, live it Bernie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rhythm
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    Madrid has three options pretty much: They can offer independence, they can give even more autonomy to the region to try and stop independence, or they can try and stop everything altogether which would probably make things even worse. I reckon it would be more autonomy that they offer.
    The trouble with European Politics is that there is a lot of Machismo, concessions are seen as weakness. It goes back to Roman days and maybe before that. Nobody ever backs down or looses face

  14. #38
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    The trouble with all politics is its driven by machismo and ego and the electorate nearly always votes the biggest bullshitters and most inept leaders into power.
    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  15. #39
    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    The higher up the tree the monkey climbs the more you see his arse............
    Not all who wander are lost
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  16. #40
    Spanish government's response was heavy handed, violent and ultimately self defeating. But nothing as remotely close to the shoot to kill policies by successive Her Majesty's governments up to and including Margaret Thatcher's. Really moronic to liken the EU to Nazi Germany. It really says it all about the abyss of ignorance displayed by the armchair patriots on this board.

  17. #41
    One life, live it Bernie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by schadenfreude
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    Spanish government's response was heavy handed, violent and ultimately self defeating. But nothing as remotely close to the shoot to kill policies by successive Her Majesty's governments up to and including Margaret Thatcher's. Really moronic to liken the EU to Nazi Germany. It really says it all about the abyss of ignorance displayed by the armchair patriots on this board.
    Who mentioned Nazi Germany?
    Last edited by Bernie; 03-10--2017 at 08:25 AM.

  18. #42
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    It hardly surprises me that the votes that were made/counted were pro-independence.
    Much of the 'stay in' thinkers probably either thought that as it had been declared illegal there was no sense in legitimising the process by voting, or were deterred by the bloody riot police breaking heads.

  19. #43
    One life, live it Bernie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Alf M
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    It hardly surprises me that the votes that were made/counted were pro-independence.
    Much of the 'stay in' thinkers probably either thought that as it had been declared illegal there was no sense in legitimising the process by voting, or were deterred by the bloody riot police breaking heads.
    People may be deterred but it won't change their mind, in fact probably the opposite. The violence has probably been the best thing that could have happened to the pro independence side.

  20. #44
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    Yes exactly, people happy with the status quo are less likely to turn out for referendum anyway, if they think they're going to get hit on the head then they'll stay at home. Police violence etc. has tipped the result.

    I'm a bit torn on the whole subject, the cynical bit of me says that Catalunya has been a wealthy region where things have been mostly stitched up by a few families and political dynasties for some time, and that despite the cultural image of insurrection and so forth what we are seeing here is an establishment capitalist grab to cement power and cut loose the drag and oversight of the rest of Spain.
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  21. #45
    One life, live it Bernie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Alf M
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    Yes exactly, people happy with the status quo are less likely to turn out for referendum anyway, if they think they're going to get hit on the head then they'll stay at home. Police violence etc. has tipped the result.

    I'm a bit torn on the whole subject, the cynical bit of me says that Catalunya has been a wealthy region where things have been mostly stitched up by a few families and political dynasties for some time, and that despite the cultural image of insurrection and so forth what we are seeing here is an establishment capitalist grab to cement power and cut loose the drag and oversight of the rest of Spain.
    Did you know that a few centuries back the kings and queens of Spain deliberately employed Sophardic Jews to run their equivalent of their Civil Service simply because they were the only people with sufficient education that weren't related to any of the influential families?

    As a result they could be trusted to be loyal only to the King, in return they got the protection of the King.

    Traditionally in Spain family loyalty came before loyalty to the crown so it was always going to be corrupt. Whoever had any local power always started using their position to enrich their family.

    Nepotism was so rife it was a way of life, and in many ways, as you say, that has not gone away. I have spoken about my mate Gordon who lived in Spain for many years, he used to joke about how he had to openly bung officials to get permission to build his place over there. Then you have to use a certain architect and a certain builder and all problems melt away
    Last edited by Bernie; 03-10--2017 at 10:05 PM.
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  22. #46
    One life, live it Bernie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NomadicRT
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    PM Rajoy has completely misjudged this and gone way OTT. I think it will seal his and his governments fate in the not too distant future.Not only has he polarised the debate overnight and given the Catalans a good argument now for independence,hes risked reigniting Basque calls for independence who only recently disarmed and dropped their demands..
    All Rajoy has done in creating this mess is prove what an inept leader and politician he is.(not that there was any doubt before)
    Absolutely right! if he had been relaxed about allowing the vote it would have gone 55% at least against independence and a bit of subtle project fear could have made that 60% and the whole idea would have died a natural death.

    Project fear has to be subtle, at the Brexit vote, Cameron and Osbourne (Osbourne in particular) totally went OTT to the extent people smelt BS and resisted their message.

    I voted leave but I never thought it would happen, Osbourne gifted us that victory with his outlandish claims.

  23. #47
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    Oh ,it gets interesting now
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    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  24. #48
    One life, live it Bernie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NomadicRT
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    Oh ,it gets interesting now
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    Basically its bollox because they can't be independent, its not possible in real time but it high lights the divisions. Europe is riven with these divisions but they are constantly being papered over and denied.

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