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Thread: Catalan independence

  1. #49
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    But it puts more pressure on Rajoy and how he reacts may be a deal breaker.Theyre obviously worried cause theyve dragged out the king to speak
    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  2. #50
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NomadicRT
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    Theyre obviously worried cause theyve dragged out the king to speak
    Because everybody cares what Royalty has to say these days
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  3. #51
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    So it seems lol I dont think the ruling classes have quite grasped the fact the old feudal system ended a while ago.

    'oh no no,you cant have independence that would be undemocratic,have a monarchy instead !'
    Last edited by NomadicRT; 04-10--2017 at 01:36 AM.
    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  4. #52

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    Originally Posted by NomadicRT
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    So it seems lol I dont think the ruling classes have quite grasped the fact the old feudal system ended a while ago.

    'oh no no,you cant have independence that would be undemocratic,have a monarchy instead !'
    Are you talking about Spain or Britain?

  5. #53
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    Originally Posted by NomadicRT
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    So it seems lol I dont think the ruling classes have quite grasped the fact the old feudal system ended a while ago.

    'oh no no,you cant have independence that would be undemocratic,have a monarchy instead !'
    The serfs still love their masters.

  6. #54
    Off the beaten track .... Maxal's Avatar
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    On the news the leaders of Spain come across as hard core right-wingers.
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    They just state the vote was illegal and violence had to be used to supress the population from going against the state - there doesn't seem to be any Spanish (leader) sense of remorse or compassion for the Catalonian position. Surely such an organised, peaceful action of disagreement should have been handled more rationally. This should have been a wake up call that the government needs to listen to it's people? It's going to backfire as it has woken a fire in a larger portion of the Catalans, it's spread now to people who didn't agree previously. Though the Spanish law won't side with the Catalans it might go to the EU (who need to express a support in unity - ironic), it's said the vote being unlawful doesn't help, that the EU can't support an illegal vote (but surely the bigger issue is the violence against those voters? which actually demonstrated that the vote could have been justifiable?).

    I don't get it. Spain said it wouldn't recognise the vote. I'm not sure where the illegality lies. ["Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal."] But what does that mean? Is Puigdemont breaking the law? Are all the voters breaking the law complicitly? I would have thought it only makes the results of the vote invalid / unrecognised / unofficial. Surely, as long as there is no breaking and entering into the poll stations, that there is no coercion or violence, then people are allowed to put pieces of paper in a box? Spain then doesn't recognise the vote, that's one issue. [The smaller issue as far as I am concerned.]

    The violence that was documented appears very similar to a police state (fascist?) reaction. It was violence beyond what was necessary, to a large number of people, some not even involved - who as far as I can see weren't doing anything that should be against the law. I might be missing, something here, but actually, those people were doing a service to the country by pointing out a grievance which needs to be addressed.

    I can understand treason and going against state is serious. However, this seems to be an example of where the state doesn't deserve respect and unless they wake up and listen it could continue to get worse. We don't need more examples of this in Europe. There needs to be more listening and pulling together. Root out the bad leaders, sure . . . but is this the way we want to go? Loads of little independent states feuding all over the place?
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    Last edited by Maxal; 05-10--2017 at 01:47 AM.

  7. #55
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by schadenfreude
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    Are you talking about Spain or Britain?
    Does it matter,they both have out of touch ruling elites and a monarchy and neither terribly fond of democracy.
    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  8. #56
    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    Whatever sticking plaster the Spanish government put on the matter the Catalan people have made a serious step on their path to independence and it may take a long time or even a short time but they will eventually be a Republic. Their actions will spur on discussion amongst many other minorities in Europe who will at some point try the same.

    What shocked me was the open violence against the public and I'm annoyed at the serious lack of condemnation by Europe and the world but then Spain is not a 3rd world country and have nothing we want to steal from them or am I being pre-coffee cynical at this time of the morning.
    Not all who wander are lost
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  9. #57
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    Well my 18 year old boy is visiting for a few days and just asked my advice (!!!!) , he has spent a few years in Spain and has himself a girlfriend in Catalan that he intends to go and live with next week , he is asking me if I think its a good idea to be there at the moment with all the unrest? ,

    My first thought was 'no, stay the feck away' , the boy in fairness said that will appear as though he favours his own wellbeing more than his girlfriends , so I thought again ..... ''never been there myself but If/ when the shit hits the fan you should be fine keeping ya head down and off the streets, going out walkies in the evening wearing a hoody might not be a good idea though''.

    So any thoughts ? .............

  10. #58
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    I'm sure it's fine there, it's not exactly snipers and government shelling/airstrikes!

  11. #59
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    This is current FO advice.


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    He should be fine.Just have a plan B (where to go if in remote possibility anything kicked off-French border- but he would be safest staying put with GF)
    Last edited by NomadicRT; 05-10--2017 at 12:03 PM.
    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  12. #60
    Off the beaten track .... Maxal's Avatar
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    Shroom - your son will be fine (as 'fine' as anywhere else in Europe). It's not like Turkey, where there the potential for civil unrest can be more serious.

    If anything, it will make a more interesting visit.

  13. #61
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    I'm watching the news on Catalonia with constant shock. I've seen a number of video footage now. All show indiscrimate violence against both sexes, young and old (though really should we discriminate?) by these big men totally protected in their black uniforms which I guess also makes them think they are invincible (are they identifiable? hence culpable? I see numbers on their backs but I'm not sure if this is identity).

    One teacher says how she was protecting children and the elderly and then she was dragged down the stairs, sexually assaulted and had her fingers broken one by one. She wanted her friend to document it and she repeatedly says, 'this is evil, this is evil' (I might be misquoting). Sarah Churchwell on Question Time last night spoke strongly about this incident.

    This is yet another example where the mobile phone becomes a champion of accurate news enabling the people's voice. This is terrible the police should act this way in uncontrolled swarm mentality. This isn't simply about thwarting a vote, and I don't really care about its illegality anymore; such disproportionate, sadistic violence is evidence of a police doing the opposite of what they are given the power to do. It's exposed a more serious issue.

    The last I heard, the prime minister wasn't acknowledging a problem with the police control. Apparently the king has spoken against the ultra-conservative leader (and the president of Catalonia has spoken against the king! It's confusing). They go on about the constitution, what about the constitutional right for the public to be protected by the police?

    I have to add the proviso, that we can't judge the whole of the Spanish police by this. How widespread this thuggish attitude is has to be looked into. But what is seen on the news certainly looks like disproportionate use of restraint, and some incidents by individual plice of brutality.

  14. #62
    Off the beaten track .... Maxal's Avatar
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    This is an event where if the leaders don't deal with it fairly, it could go horribly wrong and make a bad situation worse. There are a few areas around the Pyrenees where this divisiveness can escalate, it needs to be managed senstively and with the peace of the general population at heart.

    I think it is in the interest of all the Spanish people to remain unified. But if the Catalans feel increasingly ostracised by their nation they will react. This is the sort of event which leaders exploit (not neceesarily caring about citizen's real interests). Of course a Catalan president will try to exploit the incident and try to gain independence for Catalonia - it doesn't necessarily mean it's best for all the Catalans. In the absence of a fair politician who cares about people, a bastard will swoop in.

    The result of independence is that it will increase prejudice against oridinary Catalans - people who just want to get on with their lives. The people of Catalan will have relatives and friends outside in other parts of Spain, will need to do trade etc, there is a need to harmonise not divide. Leaders should do a better job at unifying people rather than exploit situations for individual power. SNP is similar.

  15. #63
    One life, live it Bernie's Avatar
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    There are at least three different types of Police in Spain, the ones doing the violence were a semi military national force completely separate from the local police and not under the control of the local government.

    You have to remember Spain's recent history, they are still recovering skeletons from mass graves dating from their Civil War circa 1936. Back then just having a different political point of view would get you put up against a wall and shot

  16. #64
    During the Spanish civil war Britain declared itself neutral, but was quite anti Communist and believed that a Franco's victory was in its best interest. Not only that, but eventually Britain accepted Franco's victory without objections. Contrary to popular belief, Britain did nothing to support the Catalans.
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  17. #65
    Off the beaten track .... Maxal's Avatar
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    Bernie - yes, the police comitting the violence against the Catalans were the police force for all of spain (can't remember the name). Apparently the local Catalonian police (Mossos) were helping the Catalans. The firemen too were helping the Catalans! At first I was surprised - I thought, 'won't the firemen get in trouble with the police?'. It's quite a mess of varying alliances. President, prime minister, a king, varying police of differing allegiances, the firemen (bless them), and the Catalans v the rest of Spain.

    Last night there was a good piece of news on Newsnight. It showed a huge, patriotic Spanish demonstration filling the streets (maybe in Madrid or somewhere? Certainly not Catalonia). Throngs of Spaniards were praising the Spanish police (again I mean the police for all of Spain) and their actions against the Catalan vote; seeing it as necessary action to keep the nation together, kissing them, laughing jubilantly. It was a happy, patriotic, affair, as though the violence had never happened - it certainly didn't happen to them. Then it showed those same jubilant people getting angry at another team of police (the Mossos who are pro-Catalan).

    As you say, there are different factions. And it's good the Catalans do have their own police, where would they be without them? You can imagine, outside of Spain, in Britain for instance, if somebody watched one piece of news, they could have a totally skewed view of what is happening, according to which bit of Spain the news was reporting - whether in Catalonia or the rest of Spain. This event is proving to be very divisive. The Catalans are in a difficult position.

  18. #66
    One life, live it Bernie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by schadenfreude
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    During the Spanish civil war Britain declared itself neutral, but was quite anti Communist and believed that a Franco's victory was in its best interest. Not only that, but eventually Britain accepted Franco's victory without objections. Contrary to popular belief, Britain did nothing to support the Catalans.
    That is true but within no time Franco and Hitler had become best buddies. Communism, or rather Bolshevism, was the cancer that had to be kept out of europe at all costs

  19. #67
    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    After a lot of chunter they are out but suspended for two weeks. I just hope it stays peaceful.
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    Not all who wander are lost

  20. #68
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    Originally Posted by Wulfie
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    After a lot of chunter they are out but suspended for two weeks. I just hope it stays peaceful.
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    is

    Two weeks is nothing, they should have said two years, nobody is going to shift. European politics it all about willy waving, nobody ever backs down, to give concessions is weakness. Nothing has changed since Roman times in European Politics.

    Caligula, etc would have been right at home with it

  21. #69
    See how the undemocratic EU refuses to support the democratic vote for independence in Catalonia!

    I am glad the heavy-handed approach of the Spanish government backfired big style!

  22. #70
    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    And getting more heavy handed
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    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

  23. #71
    Shed Junkie alices wonderland's Avatar
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    I've had to take at look back into history, just to try and understand how this situation came about. Ironically the Spanish tried at all costs to eradicate the spoken/written language. Yet today Spanish isn't taught or spoken in all but a few Schools. Bit of a rebellion and two fingers up to the Spanish Government and powers that be. Lots of bad blood and memories.
    even a gypsy caravan is too much settling down.

  24. #72

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    Originally Posted by misterfox
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    See how the undemocratic EU refuses to support the democratic vote for independence in Catalonia!

    I am glad the heavy-handed approach of the Spanish government backfired big style!
    Never as heavy handed as the shoot to kill policy of the Troubles period on NI.


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