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Thread: Catalan independence

  1. #1
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Catalan independence


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    It is the Catalan referendum of independence and the Spanish police are trying to stop people from voting by shutting down polling stations and not being very nice. Imagine if the British Government tried to do the same with Scotland, there would be uproar, be interesting to see how this referendum turns out.


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    Shed Junkie alices wonderland's Avatar
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    It's already invalid isn't it? Just by the number of polling stations taken offline and the general disruption the Spanish government have caused. The Spanish youth, like the French, are no walkover and they face armed officers. The Spanish CNP will have all leave cancelled this weekend.
    even a gypsy caravan is too much settling down.

  3. #3
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Madrid are oppressing people who want to vote and the world can see, even if they do stop the referendum it will just give the independence movement even more motivation to achieve their goal.
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    Shed Junkie alices wonderland's Avatar
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    Will Vanencia follow? How far could this go? Are other Countries facing the same issues of independence? and what could this mean for membership to the EU?
    even a gypsy caravan is too much settling down.

  5. #5
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Catalonia makes up about twenty percent of the Spanish economy, Madrid are going to do everything they can to keep it. It will be interesting to see how it plays out with EU membership, even if Catalonia declares independence Madrid will not recognise it. The situation could affect Spain's credit rating and their stock exchange because of the uncertainty being generated, investors do not like political uncertainty.

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    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    There's several areas that want to leave, Basque for example and a few who relate to Catalonia. Looks like the begining of the end for certain countries. If memory is right, Venice and somewhere else want out of Italy and have done for some time since the end of Yugoslavia which spawned a number of states who all rig the eurovision song contest.
    Not all who wander are lost

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    Afloat ... or adrift? marshlander's Avatar
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    There are groups seeking independence pretty much everywhere. Some may have a perfectly legitimate claim backed by history and philosophy, but those who hold the greater power are unlikely to let that power be undermined without struggle, particularly when it also affects the bottom line on a spreadsheet. Assimilation begins with the outlawing of language and culture. Most European countries have form in this department
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    Basques are in a different situation in that their land spans two administrative regions of Spain and part of France, which makes an in/out referendum somewhat more complicated!
    Chuck in the history of terrorist/guerilla actions and it's a whole different picture.

  9. #9
    Problem being of course it's these sort of movements that when frustrated by heavy-handedness can lead to a more, active means of protest. Look at the Basques, for instance. And not forgetting all the colonial independence actions, including those bloody Americans.

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    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    Sadly freedom of speech as always gets stifled by violence from so called democratic governments and the circle starts.

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    More Peace, Love and Understanding is needed by the powers that be.
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    Not all who wander are lost

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    Headwounds always make for nice dramatic images heheh

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    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    The Spanish government are being very tyrannical about it.

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    The Great British government did much worse in the '70. Thousands of people were killed in NI. Imagine if the European Community back then had dared interfere. They didn't. I'm pretty sure if the SNP had declared an unilateral Referendum in 2014, London would have sent troops and shot on sight.

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    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    I think when youre a supposedly democratic government trying to preserve democracy this wsy youve failed and need to stand down.
    This echoes the Franco era Spain.

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    Non of this matters NomadicRT's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by schadenfreude
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    The Great British government did much worse in the '70. Thousands of people were killed in NI. Imagine if the European Community back then had dared interfere. They didn't. I'm pretty sure if the SNP had declared an unilateral Referendum in 2014, London would have sent troops and shot on sight.
    Had it been the 80's i think that would have been the response.I dont think.even this government is stupid enough to take that action against Scots.It would guarantee plunging this country into a nationwide political and sectarian rebellion or even civil war they couldnt contain.
    Last edited by NomadicRT; 02-10--2017 at 05:19 AM.
    Hebridean at heart..everywhere else is just somewhere on the way back there...

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    Shed Junkie alices wonderland's Avatar
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    "With this day of hope and suffering, the citizens of Catalonia have won the right to an independent state in the form a republic," Mr Puigdemont said in a televised address flanked by other senior Catalan leaders.
    "My government in the next few days will send the results of today's vote to the Catalan parliament, where the sovereignty of our people lies, so that it can act in accordance with the law of the referendum."
    He said the European Union could no longer "continue to look the other way"
    even a gypsy caravan is too much settling down.

  17. #17
    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    800+ injured people who were just planning on quietly going to put their mark on a piece of paper. As NRT says, a touch of Franco or nazi Germany and just what is the response from the sycophantic EU, what will they say...........SFA.

    Basher Assad would be proud of the tossers in the Spanish govt.

    From The Telegraph

    Catalonia's government said 90 percent of those who voted in an unauthorised independence referendum chose to split from Spain.
    On a day marred by clashes between police and voters, 2.26 million people took part in the referendum, regional government spokesman Jordi Turull said. That represents a turnout of 42.3 percent of Catalonia's 5.34 million voters.
    Of those who took part, 2.02 million Catalans voted "yes" to the question: "Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?"
    Last edited by Wulfie; 02-10--2017 at 08:08 AM.
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    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by schadenfreude
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    The Great British government did much worse in the '70. Thousands of people were killed in NI. Imagine if the European Community back then had dared interfere. They didn't. I'm pretty sure if the SNP had declared an unilateral Referendum in 2014, London would have sent troops and shot on sight.
    There is no way the British Government would take the same kind of action against the Scots if they called a referendum without asking parliament, it would plunge the country into chaos, not to mention the fallout on the stock market as investors get scared and pull out. The Spanish Government have really screwed up, they have openly oppressed people from voting using force and everyone can see it, in other countries when people are oppressed, normally sanctions are put in place, I wonder if Madrid will receive any sanctions.

    The news keeps saying the referendum is unauthorised, but why would you ask your oppressors to give you permission for a referendum to have your independence, when they are going to say no anyway. Just have the referendum regardless.

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    Heavenly Creature Wulfie's Avatar
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    The EU won't do anything and unless Spain does some serious rethinking the situation will only get worse. Just what will the EU do for the victims of their brutality in respect of 'Human Rights' or will they just be ignored. As far as I can see there's very little comment or condemnation from the rest of the world.
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  20. #20
    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    If the Catalan government declares independence, it will most likely create uncertainty in Spain's financial markets, so Madrid are going to have to think carefully about what what to do.

  21. #21
    One life, live it Bernie's Avatar
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    What is actually illegal about the Regional Catalan Government holding a referendum? The Spanish Prime Minister may not like it but that doesn't make it illegal

    The silence from the EU has been very telling, they know this could become very nasty
    Last edited by Bernie; 02-10--2017 at 09:57 AM.

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    The Cat Summoner rhythm's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bernie
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    What is actually illegal about the Regional Catalan Government holding a referendum? The Spanish may not like it but that doesn't make it illegal
    Exactly,
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  23. #23
    Arse!

  24. #24
    Afloat ... or adrift? marshlander's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by schadenfreude
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    The Great British government did much worse in the '70. Thousands of people were killed in NI. Imagine if the European Community back then had dared interfere. They didn't. I'm pretty sure if the SNP had declared an unilateral Referendum in 2014, London would have sent troops and shot on sight.
    Can you clarify your statement, please, schadenfreude? I have no way of knowing the accuracy of the statistics, but the ones I've found indicate that the British Government were responsible for 299 deaths (9% of the total of 3,466). Yes, thousands died, but most deaths were at the hands of Republicans, who also suffered the greatest losses. Maybe Europe didn't interfere because that would have put them in direct conflict with the U.S. who funded a lot of the arms that were taken up in N.I.

    Somehow I don't think London would have sent troops into Scotland because of a referendum that had no "official" status. There are far more effective means of discrediting the outcomes of such a plebiscite ... just read the national press and see it in action all the time.

    Where Spain seems to have got it so wrong is that the response is wholly disproportionate to the matter being discussed. It make sense to me that no one should act until facts become clear. Having denied Catalan people a chance to explore the extent of support for declaring independence the government have muddied the waters whilst hardening attitudes on both sides. One might have hoped the terrible history of Spain in the twentieth century might have informed better the decision to send in the troops.

    I'm not a fan of national anthems as such, but how many of you know the Catalan anthem, "Els Segadors"? The words may be pretty fierce, but it is one one the most heartbreakingly moving melodies of any national anthem I have heard. Brings me to tears every time I hear it. In the context of this weekend I feel so, so sad.


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    If you can try and find a version by Ferran Savall who brings out the beauty of the melody in a way unlike any other performance I have heard ... and I have listened to a lot of versions.
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